Gurgen However, as evidenced by the reactions there is no room for any nuance - anyone who disagrees even slightly with the woke mantra is a bigot etc.

Nuance, eh. "Equal pay for equal work! ... except if she's not very good at her job." "Well, I do agree some cops are bastards, but ..." "We are demanding eight hours in the working day, unless you're an air traffic controller: in that case we're not comfortable unless there are shorter shifts to prevent fatigue."

Give me a mantra. Nuanced and generous private dialogues are earnt when you fight on the right side. We all have things we can't be nuanced about.

      • Coombs

      • Post #1153

      Gurgen Whether this is fully rational or not is not that relevant.

      Of course it is relevant. If I've been abused by someone, I shouldn't create laws saying that people who I deem to be "like my abuser" aren't allowed in certain spaces with me and should all have reduced rights. That is bigoted, prejudiced, and evil. It's not right for a Palestinian to hate all jews just as it's not right for women who have experienced abuse to be transphobic.

      This is classic case of men using perceived threats to [their] women as an excuse to control and abridge the rights of anyone who isn't like them from a moral high horse.

      Why won't anyone think of the women? they cry, as they rape, kill, and force women into reproductive labor.

      It's not any justification that some women are complicit in this.

      • Daz likes this.

        JazzG But clearly what is being suggested now is not acceptable to many women so we should work out a solution.

        To what? And why the very exclusive focus on women? I know two transmasc teens and only one trans girl (all kids of friends of mine).

        There are probably fewer elite trans woman athletes in the United States than there are school shootings every year. It's all rot. There's no pattern of public bathroom assaults either.

        JazzG Rather than branding people as TERFs and all sorts if they speak up.

        Speak up about what? Anything happened to you lately?

        When a trans woman speaks about herself people bleat "biological male" then expect everyone to give them a golf clap for it. Ironic this fantasy of the "woman being silenced and having her rights infringed" is so central to the justification.

        "Rape, Racism and the Myth of the Black Rapist" by Angela Davis (a chapter of WOMEN, RACE AND CLASS) is worth a read. It discusses the pragmatic aspects of fantasising about the threat of some outsider in this way. This is a way of disciplining part of the community and rationalising the collective spectacle of punishment.

              • JazzG

              • Post #1155

              Qwiss You are just repeating that it should be that way. You are yet to explain why it should be that way.

              I'm not really sure what to say here, it is pretty self explanatory why only women should be allowed into women spaces.

              Burnwinter Speak up about what? Anything happened to you lately?

              Speak up about biological men being in their spaces. Those who did were shouted down or isolated for their views. Nothing is gonna happen to me, I don't really give a shit what people think about me or my opinions

                    • JazzG

                    • Post #1156
                    • Edited

                    Ok we have a difference of opinion on the womens sports, surely this is something we can all get behind right?

                    We need to get him to apply some diplomatic pressure and ban those fucking caps that don't come off bottles as well. Another one of my pet hates.

                    I suspect one could track your pet hates, do the opposite, and have a highly rational set of policies.

                    • Daz likes this.

                    • JazzG

                    • Post #1158

                    It doesn't really matter what I think of Trump, the American people have elected him on his policies. Whether they are rational or not is sometimes down to your point of view. Whereas for example his Gaza views are quite clearly irrational whereas some of his other policies are completely logical.

                    I do not like this current Labour government at all but when they do the right things I will say so. I get the impression some people find that difficult with Trump.

                      JazzG
                      Going back to plastic straws is a small thing compared to the Gaza nonsense, but it is objectively awful.
                      It is true that my fellow citizens elected him, by a small but decisive margin.
                      It is also true that he is wrong about everything. Everything. There is not a single thing he is right about.

                          JazzG

                          JazzG I'm not really sure what to say here, it is pretty self explanatory why only women should be allowed into women spaces.

                          I'm not sure if you're doing it on purpose or not, but nobody disagrees with you on this. But trans women are women.

                                JazzG No doubt Jess Phillips has done a lot for womens safety while working for Women's Aid but when she got into power and could have made a real change for those affected by grooming gangs after being asked to do so by a council she does what most politicians before her did, fobs off the issue. The abuse towards her is clearly wrong but she needs to be called out for her actions. It is also quite clear why these full inquiry is not being done as well.

                                But this is the point I was raising, Musk is the one who attacked her saying she was a witch. (With all the baggage that comes with that) And saying she was complicit in abuse given her history and Musk's I think there is only one person who has a proven record of being invested in women's safety issues. Do you therefore condemn musk and accept he's abusing these issues not because he cares about safety and women's issues (his record of action would say otherwise) but that he wants to attack people he ideologically opposes including women? And presumably if you accept that you can see why people don't believe a president who talked about grabbing women has any intention to protect women right?

                                  What is a woman? Is it an idea? A feeling?

                                  flobaba I'm not sure how to answer the question. In my experience,, people who say "Trans women aren't women", like you, actually just mean "trans women who don't wear enough makeup or haven't enough physical procedures to look like a conventional woman, aren't women".

                                  Edit: Lol indeed. Was drunk and forgot the term cis woman.

                                    • flobaba

                                    • Post #1165
                                    • Edited

                                    Lol, it was a simple question. How is a "trans"- woman a woman? I mean, a man doesn't become a woman just because he puts on a bunch of make up or /and have some surgical procedures, and dresses up in women's clothes... Or what am I missing here?

                                      And lol at "conventional" woman.

                                      • JazzG

                                      • Post #1168

                                      flobaba You are not missing anything, a trans woman is not a woman. And to make things even worse some think that anyone who says otherwise is a bigot or transphobe.

                                      RowJimmy It is also true that he is wrong about everything. Everything. There is not a single thing he is right about.

                                      Don't think this personally but that attitude is why Trump is the president. I've got family in America who voted for Biden last time and this time switched to Trump and they don't even like Trump but could not stand what the Democrats have become. Your view there seems to be held by the Democrat party as well.

                                      Fetterman gets it.

                                            JazzG it’s hard to absorb any of this when the alternative is to be led by

                                            • convicted felon - for falsifying business records in connection with an extramarital affair with a porn actress
                                            • twice impeached
                                            • charged with conspiracy for January 6 attack that led to 5 deaths
                                            • all the sexual assault stuff
                                              …

                                            I could give this stuff credibility if the chosen one was a saint. Not this cretin.

                                                • JazzG

                                                • Post #1170
                                                • Edited

                                                Claudius Which why I've said before this wasn't even a difficult election for the Democrats to win. They decided to go with someone who was senile in Biden and when he was forced to drop out they decided to go with Kamala...

                                                Some of those charges bought against him were seen to be politically motivated by the electorate, I don't really know as I haven't followed the cases in that detail but some of the stuff coming out by the AGs did seem like they were out to get him. Some of those involved on the Jan 6 all got last minute pardons on the way out from Biden, that imo only adds credibility to the view that the charges have a political element to them.

                                                  • JazzG

                                                  • Post #1171
                                                  • Edited

                                                  Here in the UK the vibe shift is real as well, this coming from someone says JK Rowling is wrong and that a woman can have a penis. Rosie Duffield was ostracized by the Labour party for supporting JK Rowling and her views.