Kel Varnsen Really helps the right win elections.

You've got it backwards. It's not the polarised discourse that fosters the contemporary supremacy of capital. It's the absence of mass political power.

The "left" (not that there is a parliamentary left these days) losing elections amid endless bickering is better thought of as a symptom of workers of all stripes fussing about on either side of stuff like "the trans issue" because they lack the power to tax parasites like Elon Musk and string him up if he says no.

      • Qwiss

      • Post #1143
      • Edited

      JazzG Because they're not biological women.

      Why does that matter?

      JazzG It is funny how men always say stuff like this when it is women who suffer the consequences.

      You're also a man. You don't speak for women any more than we do. Guess what, women can be bigots too. My wife worries about men she's walking home alone, not trans women.

            • Qwiss

            • Post #1144

            Burnwinter As I was sort of alluding to above, in the past homosexuality used to meet with this sort of mentality.

            There were a load of people during the Irish Marriage Equality Referendum saying allowing gay marriage would diminish their marriage. This reminds me of that. Of course no ones marriage has been diminished because gay people can marry. It makes zero difference to anyone apart from gay people. Just like no womans life is effected by trans people being their bathrooms but it makes a huge difference for trans women.

                Burnwinter You've got it backwards. It's not the polarised discourse that fosters the contemporary supremacy of capital. It's the absence of mass political power.

                No. It is a minor issue, but it is also a massively unpopular issue for the left. Meaning, it'll probably shift voters on the margins to the right.

                    Kel Varnsen No. It is a minor issue, but it is also a massively unpopular issue for the left. Meaning, it'll probably shift voters on the margins to the right.

                    Issue polls are not stable measurements: they bounce around by percentiles in response to the headlines. Professional reactionaries love to ventriloquise the public about this stuff, as if worrying about trans people was considered urgent prior to it being moved to centre of the conservative media spectacle because they'd worn out their previous hobby horses.

                      • Gurgen

                      • Post #1147

                      It's a complicated issue involving two vulnerable groups. Both sides of the political spectrum choose to ignore every single concern one of those groups has. So far, that has proved mostly disastrous for the wokesters. Unlike kel I see this as a negative as I don't want the world to be ruled by incel fascist kleptocrats like Elon Musk. However, as evidenced by the reactions there is no room for any nuance - anyone who disagrees even slightly with the woke mantra is a bigot etc. There is no greater gift for today's fascists than the modern left.

                        • Gurgen

                        • Post #1148
                        • Edited

                        Qwiss This is factually incorrect. I personally know plenty of women who have experienced this and have a huge problem with it. Many of those women have experienced sexual assault at some point in their lives, perpetrated of course by men. They therefore want certain spaces for themselves where they don't have to worry about biological males being present. Whether this is fully rational or not is not that relevant. This is not hard to understand.

                        On the other hand, it is also not hard to understand that trans people are a marginalised group and many of them have been denied the right to basic care all their lives. Also, the vast majority of them obviously aren't just men pretending to be women so they can enter bathrooms. It shouldn't be hard to come to a consensus that fairly weighs all interests against each other. However that requires parties to jump off their moral high horse, and that is not going to happen any time soon. The replies to this post will surely underline that once again.

                            • Qwiss

                            • Post #1149
                            • Edited

                            Gurgen There is no greater gift for today's fascists than the modern left.

                            I think its "centrists" like yourself who enable them that give them far more than those who outright oppose them.

                                • JazzG

                                • Post #1150
                                • Edited

                                Coombs Those aren't human rights I'm familiar with, nor do I think they're being abridged even if they were.

                                Good for you but clearly a lot of women, the people who actually have to use those spaces of play in those sports feel differently.

                                QuincyAbeyie Responses like that make me pretty confident that people on the right don't even really care about women's rights. It's just a tool they use.

                                Yes because I am guessing those people who say trans women should be able to compete in girls sports or even their private spaces definitely care about women's rights.

                                Qwiss Why does that matter?

                                Because those spaces are exclusively for biological women, for the reasons Gurgen sets out.

                                Kel Varnsen I think it is fantastic that the left push the trans issue. Really helps the right win elections.

                                Some simply can't see it, unbelievable really. From my eyes only allowing biological girls in girls sports isn't even a 50/50 issue.

                                Gurgen On the other hand, it is also not hard to understand that trans people are a marginalised group and many of them have been denied the right to basic care all their lives. Also, the vast majority of them obviously aren't just men pretending to be women so they can enter bathrooms. It shouldn't be hard to come to a consensus that fairly weighs all interests against each other. However that requires parties to jump off their moral high horse, and that is not going to happen any time soon. The replies to this post will surely underline that once again.

                                Sounds completely sensible to me. I've always said we should not marginalise any community and look to work out a sensible solution. Giving them access into womens spaces is not that solution.

                                awooga83 hey don't, musk on Twitter abusing Jess Phillips a UK MP who has been working and raising awareness on issues about women's safety for years while musk has done f all and not bothered to fund anything in that regard but was happy to attack her as a witch and complicit in abuse

                                No doubt Jess Phillips has done a lot for womens safety while working for Women's Aid but when she got into power and could have made a real change for those affected by grooming gangs after being asked to do so by a council she does what most politicians before her did, fobs off the issue. The abuse towards her is clearly wrong but she needs to be called out for her actions. It is also quite clear why these full inquiry is not being done as well.

                                Burnwinter As I was sort of alluding to above, in the past homosexuality used to meet with this sort of mentality.

                                If a sensible solution is found trans people will also find acceptance and I hope we get there. But clearly what is being suggested now is not acceptable to many women so we should work out a solution. Rather than branding people as TERFs and all sorts if they speak up.

                                                • Qwiss

                                                • Post #1151

                                                JazzG Because those spaces are exclusively for biological women, for the reasons Gurgen sets out.

                                                You are just repeating that it should be that way. You are yet to explain why it should be that way.

                                                    Gurgen However, as evidenced by the reactions there is no room for any nuance - anyone who disagrees even slightly with the woke mantra is a bigot etc.

                                                    Nuance, eh. "Equal pay for equal work! ... except if she's not very good at her job." "Well, I do agree some cops are bastards, but ..." "We are demanding eight hours in the working day, unless you're an air traffic controller: in that case we're not comfortable unless there are shorter shifts to prevent fatigue."

                                                    Give me a mantra. Nuanced and generous private dialogues are earnt when you fight on the right side. We all have things we can't be nuanced about.

                                                        • Coombs

                                                        • Post #1153

                                                        Gurgen Whether this is fully rational or not is not that relevant.

                                                        Of course it is relevant. If I've been abused by someone, I shouldn't create laws saying that people who I deem to be "like my abuser" aren't allowed in certain spaces with me and should all have reduced rights. That is bigoted, prejudiced, and evil. It's not right for a Palestinian to hate all jews just as it's not right for women who have experienced abuse to be transphobic.

                                                        This is classic case of men using perceived threats to [their] women as an excuse to control and abridge the rights of anyone who isn't like them from a moral high horse.

                                                        Why won't anyone think of the women? they cry, as they rape, kill, and force women into reproductive labor.

                                                        It's not any justification that some women are complicit in this.

                                                        • Daz likes this.

                                                          JazzG But clearly what is being suggested now is not acceptable to many women so we should work out a solution.

                                                          To what? And why the very exclusive focus on women? I know two transmasc teens and only one trans girl (all kids of friends of mine).

                                                          There are probably fewer elite trans woman athletes in the United States than there are school shootings every year. It's all rot. There's no pattern of public bathroom assaults either.

                                                          JazzG Rather than branding people as TERFs and all sorts if they speak up.

                                                          Speak up about what? Anything happened to you lately?

                                                          When a trans woman speaks about herself people bleat "biological male" then expect everyone to give them a golf clap for it. Ironic this fantasy of the "woman being silenced and having her rights infringed" is so central to the justification.

                                                          "Rape, Racism and the Myth of the Black Rapist" by Angela Davis (a chapter of WOMEN, RACE AND CLASS) is worth a read. It discusses the pragmatic aspects of fantasising about the threat of some outsider in this way. This is a way of disciplining part of the community and rationalising the collective spectacle of punishment.

                                                                • JazzG

                                                                • Post #1155

                                                                Qwiss You are just repeating that it should be that way. You are yet to explain why it should be that way.

                                                                I'm not really sure what to say here, it is pretty self explanatory why only women should be allowed into women spaces.

                                                                Burnwinter Speak up about what? Anything happened to you lately?

                                                                Speak up about biological men being in their spaces. Those who did were shouted down or isolated for their views. Nothing is gonna happen to me, I don't really give a shit what people think about me or my opinions

                                                                      • JazzG

                                                                      • Post #1156
                                                                      • Edited

                                                                      Ok we have a difference of opinion on the womens sports, surely this is something we can all get behind right?

                                                                      We need to get him to apply some diplomatic pressure and ban those fucking caps that don't come off bottles as well. Another one of my pet hates.

                                                                      I suspect one could track your pet hates, do the opposite, and have a highly rational set of policies.

                                                                      • Daz likes this.

                                                                      • JazzG

                                                                      • Post #1158

                                                                      It doesn't really matter what I think of Trump, the American people have elected him on his policies. Whether they are rational or not is sometimes down to your point of view. Whereas for example his Gaza views are quite clearly irrational whereas some of his other policies are completely logical.

                                                                      I do not like this current Labour government at all but when they do the right things I will say so. I get the impression some people find that difficult with Trump.

                                                                        JazzG
                                                                        Going back to plastic straws is a small thing compared to the Gaza nonsense, but it is objectively awful.
                                                                        It is true that my fellow citizens elected him, by a small but decisive margin.
                                                                        It is also true that he is wrong about everything. Everything. There is not a single thing he is right about.

                                                                            JazzG

                                                                            JazzG I'm not really sure what to say here, it is pretty self explanatory why only women should be allowed into women spaces.

                                                                            I'm not sure if you're doing it on purpose or not, but nobody disagrees with you on this. But trans women are women.

                                                                                  JazzG No doubt Jess Phillips has done a lot for womens safety while working for Women's Aid but when she got into power and could have made a real change for those affected by grooming gangs after being asked to do so by a council she does what most politicians before her did, fobs off the issue. The abuse towards her is clearly wrong but she needs to be called out for her actions. It is also quite clear why these full inquiry is not being done as well.

                                                                                  But this is the point I was raising, Musk is the one who attacked her saying she was a witch. (With all the baggage that comes with that) And saying she was complicit in abuse given her history and Musk's I think there is only one person who has a proven record of being invested in women's safety issues. Do you therefore condemn musk and accept he's abusing these issues not because he cares about safety and women's issues (his record of action would say otherwise) but that he wants to attack people he ideologically opposes including women? And presumably if you accept that you can see why people don't believe a president who talked about grabbing women has any intention to protect women right?