Qwiss This is factually incorrect. I personally know plenty of women who have experienced this and have a huge problem with it. Many of those women have experienced sexual assault at some point in their lives, perpetrated of course by men. They therefore want certain spaces for themselves where they don't have to worry about biological males being present. Whether this is fully rational or not is not that relevant. This is not hard to understand.

On the other hand, it is also not hard to understand that trans people are a marginalised group and many of them have been denied the right to basic care all their lives. Also, the vast majority of them obviously aren't just men pretending to be women so they can enter bathrooms. It shouldn't be hard to come to a consensus that fairly weighs all interests against each other. However that requires parties to jump off their moral high horse, and that is not going to happen any time soon. The replies to this post will surely underline that once again.

Gurgen There is no greater gift for today's fascists than the modern left.

I think its "centrists" like yourself who enable them that give them far more than those who outright oppose them.

Coombs Those aren't human rights I'm familiar with, nor do I think they're being abridged even if they were.

Good for you but clearly a lot of women, the people who actually have to use those spaces of play in those sports feel differently.

QuincyAbeyie Responses like that make me pretty confident that people on the right don't even really care about women's rights. It's just a tool they use.

Yes because I am guessing those people who say trans women should be able to compete in girls sports or even their private spaces definitely care about women's rights.

Qwiss Why does that matter?

Because those spaces are exclusively for biological women, for the reasons Gurgen sets out.

Kel Varnsen I think it is fantastic that the left push the trans issue. Really helps the right win elections.

Some simply can't see it, unbelievable really. From my eyes only allowing biological girls in girls sports isn't even a 50/50 issue.

Gurgen On the other hand, it is also not hard to understand that trans people are a marginalised group and many of them have been denied the right to basic care all their lives. Also, the vast majority of them obviously aren't just men pretending to be women so they can enter bathrooms. It shouldn't be hard to come to a consensus that fairly weighs all interests against each other. However that requires parties to jump off their moral high horse, and that is not going to happen any time soon. The replies to this post will surely underline that once again.

Sounds completely sensible to me. I've always said we should not marginalise any community and look to work out a sensible solution. Giving them access into womens spaces is not that solution.

awooga83 hey don't, musk on Twitter abusing Jess Phillips a UK MP who has been working and raising awareness on issues about women's safety for years while musk has done f all and not bothered to fund anything in that regard but was happy to attack her as a witch and complicit in abuse

No doubt Jess Phillips has done a lot for womens safety while working for Women's Aid but when she got into power and could have made a real change for those affected by grooming gangs after being asked to do so by a council she does what most politicians before her did, fobs off the issue. The abuse towards her is clearly wrong but she needs to be called out for her actions. It is also quite clear why these full inquiry is not being done as well.

Burnwinter As I was sort of alluding to above, in the past homosexuality used to meet with this sort of mentality.

If a sensible solution is found trans people will also find acceptance and I hope we get there. But clearly what is being suggested now is not acceptable to many women so we should work out a solution. Rather than branding people as TERFs and all sorts if they speak up.

Ok we have a difference of opinion on the womens sports, surely this is something we can all get behind right?

We need to get him to apply some diplomatic pressure and ban those fucking caps that don't come off bottles as well. Another one of my pet hates.

flobaba I'm not sure how to answer the question. In my experience,, people who say "Trans women aren't women", like you, actually just mean "trans women who don't wear enough makeup or haven't enough physical procedures to look like a conventional woman, aren't women".

Edit: Lol indeed. Was drunk and forgot the term cis woman.

Lol, it was a simple question. How is a "trans"- woman a woman? I mean, a man doesn't become a woman just because he puts on a bunch of make up or /and have some surgical procedures, and dresses up in women's clothes... Or what am I missing here?

Claudius Which why I've said before this wasn't even a difficult election for the Democrats to win. They decided to go with someone who was senile in Biden and when he was forced to drop out they decided to go with Kamala...

Some of those charges bought against him were seen to be politically motivated by the electorate, I don't really know as I haven't followed the cases in that detail but some of the stuff coming out by the AGs did seem like they were out to get him. Some of those involved on the Jan 6 all got last minute pardons on the way out from Biden, that imo only adds credibility to the view that the charges have a political element to them.

Here in the UK the vibe shift is real as well, this coming from someone says JK Rowling is wrong and that a woman can have a penis. Rosie Duffield was ostracized by the Labour party for supporting JK Rowling and her views.

Burnwinter think you guys all know I used to be involved with the Daily Cannon website.

My one contribution, such as it is, to this debate is Lee - the guy who runs the site - used to be an angry Irish lesbian called Leanne. Having realised he was actually a man in a woman's body, he transitioned around 10-12 years ago. Once he transitioned, everyone accepted him for who he now was, an angry trans man. I don't see why this should be any different the other way round.

Burnwinter When you observe someone transition you see that "biological sex" is very far from static, binary and immutable.

Biology in general. It turns out we modify ourselves all the time. Men taking testosterone isn't "natural," either, but it goes far beyond that. We are born into what Derrida called the prosthetic already-there. We are technical beings at the instant we are human, modified, extended, and reduced by the pharmakon of the nonhuman upon which our humanity is predicated. The skin barrier is porous, and the narrative of a pure, natural, organismic unity is a myth that defies all logic and, yes, even the so-called common sense logics that govern antitrans discourses.

No more skin grafts, no more hair plugs. No more literature, because it's not natural unless you can remember. No more vaccines, no more skateboards. Kill all knowledge, because only ignorance is compatible with nature.

Cass review in the UK found the evidence for puberty blockers and hormone therapy to be remarkably weak yet in some countries we have kids being operated on. Irreversible surgeries being done on kids without strong evidence, that is experimental surgery and mutilation in my eyes. Breast binders being sent out in discreet packaging to under-aged kids in this country without parental consent. Irreversible and we already have high profile cases like Chloe Cole coming out talking about their regrets.

Once they are an adult, whatever path they go down they should be supported.

@JazzG @flobaba Look mates, there's nothing elite or rarefied about my life experiences. I've been moving through a pretty normal Australian sphere. I'm not a private school kid, a trust fund kid, an academic at an elite university, etc.

But I do know quite a few trans people and as far as my humdrum acquaintance goes, the stuff that is said by conservatives is factually way, way off the mark. It is false and damaging.

I'd say I'm the simple soul who doesn't maintain a lot of complex ideas based on nothing about this.

The debate over whether trans women are women, or trans lives are human lives is over in Australia from a civic and social perspective. Trans women live legally as women after transition and lots of paperwork, go to work as women, etc. Nobody stopped that train here. I reckon that's because real trans people are leading unexceptional lives that don't look like anyone's lurid headlines.

There are substantial social and political issues associated with trans identity here, but none is caused by any pattern of trans people being socially malevolent or dangerous that anyone can point to. Just imagine how much we'd hear about it if they could!

The debate may be settled in Australia, but it's obviously not settled in many other places in the world. Gender fluidity is not as accepted a proposition as you might believe. Interesting that you've met and got close to so many considering their rarity. I've met one. He was cool. Wifey's friend and work colleague. Had a fiancee and everything. But he is a woman. Surgery, hormones. Still a woman. He did not grow up having a boy/man's experiences, and he is not biologically male. These are facts, right? I can't just wake up one morning and say I think I'm a woman, can I? And then project my thinking and beliefs into other people's realities. It's just you know, silly.

Oh, and what if I'm trans woman today. Can I decide in like 3 years that eh, been there done that, and go back to being a man? What would I be then? A trans untrans? Retrans? Food for thought.