Coombs such a dumb country with dumb leadership. They were out there posing for pictures when the first soldiers got killed, instead of suing for peace. Folks clapping them on during sporting events. The humble pie they'd have had to munch on then would have tasted much better than this dish of blood, death and destruction they've been served in the aftermath. Now they're being used for drone target practice.

      jones I have a gym friend that works for Potra's team-they work for/under Wagner, they managed to get back home by some UN protected corridor a few weeks ago from Congo. The stories he has from Africa man....they did not do god's work there, I'll tell you that much. A few other Romanian politicians have made millions in Africa...by some not very nice means.
      Poor people in Africa always get the worst treatment, no matter who goes there, steals.

      Coombs What was the right thing to do?

      flobaba Suing for peace? What lol

              100%. I'm on record as advocating for Taiwan to go do the same and preemptively beg China. How foolish to do otherwise.

                HomeSteak What was the right thing to do?

                In this particular circumstance? Negotiated surrender. When NATO didn't line up on the border in equal or greater measure to the assembled Russian forces, it was either years of death and destruction or surrender.

                It's about clarity of purpose in responding to the world as it is rather than as you wish it would be, even as it should be.
                Putin is an evil bastard. Say it a thousand times, doesn't change a thing. Just because something should be different, because someone shouldn't murder hundreds of thousands of people, because someone should respect a people's autonomy...it makes no difference. Dying on principle is foolish enough, let alone asking others to do so.

                Would there have been a purge? Surely. Would there have been thousands detained, imprisoned, tortured, killed? Likely, yes. Could that have been mitigated through diplomacy and exile? I believe, yes. Would it have been the scale of destruction and suffering seen over the last few years? Unequivocally, no.

                Even "victory" at this point is a massive failure. There is no outcome that can justify this.

                EDIT: I meant to say that I said all this in the days leading up to the current invasion, and continue to maintain my stance ever since. I get a lot of grief, from my close Romanian friends in particular. We had an argument about it with no resolution. It remains, to this day, a position that baffles them, and I don't expect that to change.

                    HomeSteak wasn't trying to say they did, they're mercenaries after all. Just saying that looking at what they've done while ignoring 100+ years of murder, environmental destruction and pillage in the region.

                    France has sent troops and bombers to Cote d'ivoire Mali or Chad regularly whenever people complained to loudly that their people saw nothing from the resources extracted from their soil. The entire country Niger is literally run by a French company called Orano, people there get sick and die from working uranium mines with no protection gear.

                    The whole region has become a hotbed for human traffickers in both directions - people taking money from Africans from the South trying to get to Europe and people taking money from Europe to prevent Africans from reaching its borders, in some cases it's the same smugglers even. The EU pays them millions to catch people on the way to the African North coast, bag them and to release them in the middle of the Sahara to die. So yea Russian mercenaries are no saints but they're not even 1% of the death machine that is Western interests in the region.

                        Coombs but that is not how the real world works at all. Even if the Ukrainian government would have run, there would have been fractions of the army, militias groups that would have fought, a lot of them. i mean, look at Crimea, where they did leave, and got no help from the west, there was still a war, a shit load of people died. And, what you said did not work out(never will work), as they invaded again. Come on man, in your view the USA or China can just go and set up camp where ever they want, and people should be fine with it?this is chamberlain on steroids, idiotic

                        And there is still an expected outcome that they have in mind that they would be fine with, hence why they fight. Each side has a number in mind in terms of loss of life and resources. War very rarely end with total victory. They end when one party feels they can't get close to the expected outcome, or when one side gets to that, and they end up signing a deal with probably a little less gain, but with savings in terms of money and life.

                            Beginning of the end for NATO? I don't think Putin in his wildest dreams could have imagined this.

                              JazzG lol Merz veering off the side of the US uno

                              Guy would literally detonate nukes in Germany if the US told him to.

                                  JazzG this is hilarious. also hilarious that NATO is structured such that you can't expel members as it is a consensus-driven org

                                      EU leaders hinting at doubling their military spending relative to GDP for a new look, go-it-alone NATO, while the likes of RN and AfD (21% in the German election of recent days) wait in the wings of power. This is a banquet for the populists and Putin.

                                        jones Guy does come across as a bit odd, read today former Blackrock executive....You live in Germany don't do you? Do you think any new coalition will hold? Seen AFD have doubled their vote and shown a surprising rise in youth and homosexual voter share. Both main parties with historical low voter share.

                                        Claudius Lets be honest NATO is basically America with other countries tagging on. No America means no NATO.

                                              Burnwinter Problem is a lot of Europeans talk the big talk, when/if Russia are invited back into the fold and this shit all dies down, they'll slowly roll back their defence spending again. Russia aren't in a position to launch any kind of major attack for next 5-10 years according to some, that is a long time in politics!

                                                  JazzG he's a huge piece of shit, basically avarice personified. Used to work for Mayer Brown advising clients how to dodge Cum Ex penalties, should tell you all this guy did that while advising BlackRock all while he's an MP lol.

                                                  SPD (German labour) will do as usual and help CDU push through their standard neoliberal and nationalist arch conservative programme no questions asked. Merz said before the elections under no circumstances will he form a coalition with AfD but he's also pushed through a law proposal (with no chance of being applied) where he knew it would only be passed with AfD votes - most see this as a calculated breach of a taboo that's sign of things to come.

                                                  Yea not surprising to me youth and gays vote hard right in this country, pretty much everyone does. AfD got 20% of the vote but people don't register the CDU who won the election have a programme that's in many aspects even further right than the AfD, even the latter complained that they copied their playbook lol.

                                                  Country is in the shitter and I for one can't wait for the AfD to come into power, they're so incompetent and hilariously dumb people will either wake up and realise what they've been voting for or they won't and we can finally flush the toilet once and for all

                                                      jones Country is in the shitter and I for one can't wait for [_____] to come into power, they're so incompetent and hilariously dumb people will either wake up and realise what they've been voting for or they won't and we can finally flush the toilet once and for all

                                                      This post could be a template for half of us on here, I reckon. Australia's currently waiting on a guy called Peter Dutton, who makes Tony "I snack on raw onions" Abbott look like a Nobel laureate, to take over based on promising idiots impossible nuclear power plants, flags and lots more flags, and a swelter of state racism.

                                                          HomeSteak I feel you're proving my point. Wars are won before they begin. Once they start, there is only loss.

                                                            Burnwinter yep that's the entire West in a nutshell really.

                                                            Past Sunday was the first time in my adult life I didn't vote. Never believed this country was an actual democracy at any point but there were literally zero options this time round. Felt liberating not partaking in this shitshow

                                                              JazzG Problem is a lot of Europeans talk the big talk

                                                              I despise Macron running round for photo ops in an armoured vest like anyone, but I reckon the average US citizen has less idea what war means than the average European, much less people living in Warsaw Pact countries.

                                                              The US is now imploding on the European stage because its two major parties have kicked off a categorical disagreement on NATO while there's an extremely bloody war on Europe's border, a war that the US has hurried along at every step. It's a grotesque situation.