daredevil that's fair but I guess my overarching assessment is that whilst stats can tell us many things, when it comes to sports (particularly football) they can't give us as holistic an understanding of performance because they're often limited in their capacity to take into account relevant context (which I find even more true when it comes to goalkeeping).

To give an example I've seen stats used to show Raya as a superior 'keeper, whilst the same stats suggested Leno was the best in the league and Ederson one of the worst. If it's that simple, why is Leno at Fulham (not getting a game for his national team) and Ederson is at City (winning all the trophies)? In goalkeeping (much like other positions), your stats are dictated by how the manager wants you to play (the style of football) and I have no doubt that Raya better aligns with how Arteta wants his GK to play but I'm yet to be convinced he's a tangible upgrade on Ramsdale in terms of how well he's played.

      Don Pacifico the stats don't say that Leno is a better GK, that would be your own reading of them. Stats can tell you that Leno is a better shot-stopper than Ederson, which would obviously be true. Stats can also tell you just as easily that Ederson is a better passer than Leno.

          QuincyAbeyie so are you saying that stats can tell you who is a better goalkeeper? Because if so, I disagree for the reasons stated above.

              Don Pacifico i quite literally said the opposite. I said that whatever stats you've seen has never told you that Leno is a better GK than Ederson, just that he's a better shot-stopper.

              That people choose to take those stats to mean Leno is the best GK in the league is their problem, not the stats. So in your example, Ederson's passing clearly hasn't been included in the stats shown since you thought they made it seem like Leno has better. So the question is - what stats do you think are missing that Ramsdale does better than Raya in?

              If one GK is better at one thing and the other is better at other things, they of course stats can't tell you woh is the best GK overall because that depends on what you want. However, if one is better at everything, it's weird for me to think that wouldn't tell you who's the best.

              If you're saying that stats can't show which GK is better at making saves than another, then I very much disagree with you.

                  Gurgen anyone can beat Ramsdale stats this season given how bad defensively setup we were and pretty much experimental backline

                    Passes attempted is an awful stat. That doesn't tell us anything about the keeper.

                    QuincyAbeyie the reason I asked you that was because my point was that stats don't tell you everything, which I think you broadly agree with.

                    In terms of finding other stats to prove Ramsdale is better, firstly I'm not trying to do that. And secondly, I've already said I think stats give an incomplete representation of GK performance. Clrnc has just given an example of that. I've also yet to see statistics that articulate Raya's weakness in parrying into dangerous spaces (see Spurs' first goal), a known weakness of his (maybe they exist but I haven't seen them).

                      Gurgen He looks better than Ramsdale from what I’ve seen.

                      I don’t think either are our ideal long term solution though.

                        Top sides usually have a world class keeper and a world class striker. Unfortunately we have neither.

                        Think Raya could do with a break, he’s not handling the pressure well at all at the moment and it may be compounding with each game.

                          goon

                          You play him all these hard games then rest him for the easiest game of the season (on paper)? No way.

                            goon His technique at the end there was awful. Almost punching it into the net. He did the same at Brentford too

                              Another massive waste of space signing. Not cheap either, if it's indeed an obligation to buy.

                              goon yep. I rate him but his form stinks. Needs a chance to calm down and find his bearings again.

                                  Don Pacifico can't take things for granted. Other players will need a rest after CL too

                                    Sicario2 - Tier 1 Haven't noticed much of a "pressure campaign" myself. The dumb situation is creating the pressure by itself. Ramsdale's seemingly been pretty reasonable about it and that interview he's just given is the first he's spoken about it publicly.

                                    These stats are totally bogus by the way, I mean there's not even anything about goals or keeping in there? How about including "balls punched cleanly" or "defensive situations where not totally rattled"?!

                                    Fully expect this "saga" will end with Raya being anointed our permanent first choice and Ramsdale leaving, after all that's what Arteta has decided and hung his hat on, and Arteta's least favourite thing is changing his mind. But it has all felt thoroughly pointless and counterproductive thus far.

                                      Qwiss Raya's first 2 games were also against Everton and PSV who didn't have a shot between them. Do people think Ramsdale would have conceded in that Everton game?
                                      Certainly Raya's dealing with crosses is looking a concern and something that may cost us more points throughout the season. In recent weeks we've already had the flap against Spurs for their first goal and the Mudryk goal crossed from a very similar area on the pitch then today the almost punch into his own net in injury time. The punch today felt like something our last Spanish keeper might have managed to do.

                                        Definitely gives some Almunia vibes. Almunia was the beginning of the end for Wenger, hope Raya is not the same for Arteta.