Clrnc Agree we shouldn't have sold him but ultimately I don't think there's a whole lot of difference between Martinez, Ramsdale or Raya. Tbh I'd even argue Leno's actually the best goalkeeper of them all, he's just not very good with the ball at his feet.

    Sicario2 - Tier 1 not sure that graphic really says anything all that insightful. There's a whole lot more going on that's not represented in those stats (have personally always felt stats struggle to articulate a GK's performance).

      They might as well be stats for CM too as they don't contain any real goalkeeper stats. Also lack some context which most stats do. Is the opposition CB winning a header from a long ball and the keeper passing it to Chelsea's striker on the penalty spot equally included in the "possession lost" category?

      Question for the group - so I get that Mudryk's goal was a fluke but can someone better informed explain Raya's positioning? I get he's trying to be proactive but I feel like he's liable to be caught out with crosses to the back post.

      Mirth he's been fairly shaky at times for Villa and reports during the summer were that Emery was trying to get rid of him. Think he's bought into his own hype too much.

        Sicario2 - Tier 1 stats look wonky. According to whoscored Ramsdale has 77.1 pass competition and Raya has 77.8. So whats "pass accuracy"here?

          Main thing making him look bad is that he’s being asked to play as an outfield player and the defenders are being asked to trust him like one.

          The issue is the execution is off at the moment. He’s asked to take his time and pick the right pass, what’s
          happening instead is he’s taking his time and missing the right pass, at least in phases of the game.

          Defenders are asked to trust him and use him, they’ve taken that literally and just use him all the time, even when it’s not right.

          We will work it out, and it’ll start looking a lot more nuanced vs this literal interpretation we are getting now.

          @"Don Pacifico"#p2396

          Although, I agree those stats might not be all encompassing, I would like to see where Ramsdale is proving to be statistically superior.

            Gurgen worth remembering Rayas had our first choice back 4 in front of him while Ramsdale had a lot of games with that abomination of a backline Arteta experimented with at the start of the season.

                daredevil that's fair but I guess my overarching assessment is that whilst stats can tell us many things, when it comes to sports (particularly football) they can't give us as holistic an understanding of performance because they're often limited in their capacity to take into account relevant context (which I find even more true when it comes to goalkeeping).

                To give an example I've seen stats used to show Raya as a superior 'keeper, whilst the same stats suggested Leno was the best in the league and Ederson one of the worst. If it's that simple, why is Leno at Fulham (not getting a game for his national team) and Ederson is at City (winning all the trophies)? In goalkeeping (much like other positions), your stats are dictated by how the manager wants you to play (the style of football) and I have no doubt that Raya better aligns with how Arteta wants his GK to play but I'm yet to be convinced he's a tangible upgrade on Ramsdale in terms of how well he's played.

                    Don Pacifico the stats don't say that Leno is a better GK, that would be your own reading of them. Stats can tell you that Leno is a better shot-stopper than Ederson, which would obviously be true. Stats can also tell you just as easily that Ederson is a better passer than Leno.

                        QuincyAbeyie so are you saying that stats can tell you who is a better goalkeeper? Because if so, I disagree for the reasons stated above.

                            Don Pacifico i quite literally said the opposite. I said that whatever stats you've seen has never told you that Leno is a better GK than Ederson, just that he's a better shot-stopper.

                            That people choose to take those stats to mean Leno is the best GK in the league is their problem, not the stats. So in your example, Ederson's passing clearly hasn't been included in the stats shown since you thought they made it seem like Leno has better. So the question is - what stats do you think are missing that Ramsdale does better than Raya in?

                            If one GK is better at one thing and the other is better at other things, they of course stats can't tell you woh is the best GK overall because that depends on what you want. However, if one is better at everything, it's weird for me to think that wouldn't tell you who's the best.

                            If you're saying that stats can't show which GK is better at making saves than another, then I very much disagree with you.

                                Gurgen anyone can beat Ramsdale stats this season given how bad defensively setup we were and pretty much experimental backline

                                  Passes attempted is an awful stat. That doesn't tell us anything about the keeper.

                                  QuincyAbeyie the reason I asked you that was because my point was that stats don't tell you everything, which I think you broadly agree with.

                                  In terms of finding other stats to prove Ramsdale is better, firstly I'm not trying to do that. And secondly, I've already said I think stats give an incomplete representation of GK performance. Clrnc has just given an example of that. I've also yet to see statistics that articulate Raya's weakness in parrying into dangerous spaces (see Spurs' first goal), a known weakness of his (maybe they exist but I haven't seen them).

                                    Gurgen He looks better than Ramsdale from what I’ve seen.

                                    I don’t think either are our ideal long term solution though.