Jorginho: Page 10 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Jorginho

Pepe LeFrits

Pretty sure we have an option to extend, and I expect we will. We have much more pressing issues than replacing Jorginho imo.

Qwiss

Replace Partey and Jorge is no issue really. I'd extend but one season only, any more would be too much.

daredevil

Losing Partey and Jorginho in one summer would be too much experience to let go at once. Even though the former has barely played this season, he will come back and play a role.

daredevil

Gazza M

Single biggest reason why our football changed this season. Too many half baked concocted theories about control ball, and 80 degree vertical perpendicular somersault tactics when football in a lot of ways is a very simple game.

You have a guy who can pass through the lines who will create dangerous high quality attacks vs a guy who doesn't take as many risks and prefers passing wide. Interchanging the two will have different ramifications for the type of football we see.

Gurgen

Wish we'd gotten him in his prime. Class act.

daredevil

Burnwinter

That's because for me, the end justifies the means. That's why I don't get hell bent over Jesus's profligacy. Since he joined, our attack has improved massively. I don't really care if he only scores 12 times if the attack he's spearheading scores 88.

And with Havertz yesterday, the attack just worked.

QuincyAbeyie

daredevil Since he joined, our attack has improved massively

That's an insanely simplistic analysis that would have to assume that everything else, or at least most other things, have stayed exactly the same since before he joined.

Burnwinter

daredevil And with Havertz yesterday, the attack just worked.

Initial disclaimer: this post is not an attack on Havertz, just a call to reason.

I don't call it "just working" when we're reliant on a lucky rebound off the keeper to get off the mark and score, because our central forward has very poor execution.

This is why the Giroud comparison. Obviously Olivier Giroud is no footballing Leonardo Da Vinci, but he was both a far sharper striker and more creative than Havertz. Absolutely elite athleticism is what Havertz has over peak Giroud, but bugger all else.

I've grown fond of Havertz but surely either he improves, or we improve on him.

daredevil

QuincyAbeyie

Of course, nothing is static, but it's ludicrous to argue that someone who is literally central to the attack is actually a limitation, when his introduction to the attack saw an increase in nearly 30 goals.

lorddulaarsenal

JazzG I think Zubimendi is being lined up as a Jorginho replacement skill set wise

Burnwinter

Gazza M It's making me appreciate the Zubimendi links more. As you point out, Rice puts himself about so well we don't need much more defensively.

Don Pacifico

Burnwinter I think that's it. I've been vocal in recognising his improvement over the course of the season and what he added to our attack when playing as striker but the reality is he's still not giving enough to justify the price tag and his role in the squad.

It's still relatively early days but we should expect more from him and if he doesn't deliver, think about alternatives.

goon

Burnwinter

Blimey, Giroud rep seems to be getting better by the day! Anyone young fan who reads OMITT will be forgiven for thinking he’s up there with Wright, Henry, Bergkamp and RvP.

Little would they know the amount of angst and derision he used to generate on places like this back when he used to actually play for us!

The irony is he’s about the last player you’d use to make any sort of point about Jesus and Havertz. The guy averaged about 13 league goals a season and missed an incredible amount of sitters, who can forget that anguished face he used to make. He went through looong dry spells over a season too. As for his creativity, he didn’t rack up many assists either.

Burnwinter

I dunno if he needs to be transferred out, he's definitely got his uses and it would be sad when we got £35m or something for him.

To be a starter longer term he'll have to be better than the next midfielder and striker we sign—and if current Havertz is either of those things, Edu fucked up.

Don Pacifico

Burnwinter I dunno if he needs to be transferred out, he's definitely got his uses and it would be sad when we got £35m or something for him.

I'm not suggesting we need to make any hasty decisions but if his level plateaus (and it's approximately what he's showing now) then I'd cut loose as his value will only tank further and it will clear his massive wages off the books.

I'm still hoping we can turn him into the player people thought he'd be at Leverkusen but we shouldn't be blind to the fact we've made an investment in him that he needs to be able to substantiate.

QuincyAbeyie

goon I certainly don't miss Giroud and agree that there's a weird revisionism going on around him, but I think the point is that our guys make even someone like Giroud look prolific.

Don Pacifico

goon Blimey, Giroud rep seems to be getting better by the day! Anyone young fan who reads OMITT will be forgiven for thinking he’s up there with Wright, Henry, Bergkamp and RvP.

Little would they know the amount of angst and derision he used to generate on places like this back when he used to actually play for us!

I think there's probably conflation of a couple of things here: (i) a legitimate desire for a physically imposing option up front and (ii) a legitimate concern about our profligacy in front of goal. Giroud solves problem 1 but as you allude to, he probably doesn't solve problem 2; that being said, his goal record is still superior to Jesus...

Burnwinter

goon Little would they know the amount of angst and derision he used to generate on places like this back when he used to actually play for us!

Walked right into my trap, ha.

You're right, Giroud wasn't a world class striker. Though I always backed him in the day, so I wasn't responsible for the angst or derision.

However. Giroud struck the ball better than Havertz, and scored and created more goals than Havertz for his teammates, while also "throwing himself around" if that's now the reason Havertz is supposed to be non-shit, so … ???

Sicario2 - Tier 1

goon

I’ve always said he’s the most underrated player of all time.

But look at his CV. He’s France’s all time leading goalscorer, won a CL and a World Cup. Not many CV’s better than that including the ones you mentioned .

He is also playing at the top level at the age of 36 whereas Henry was in the States at this age.

Giroud was hit and miss for us but has improved and grown massively as a player since leaving. Like a fine wine.

RowJimmy

I always liked Giroud.

Qwiss

RowJimmy me too and Burns IIRC. Giroud was underrated because we were so used to World class strikers before him. Only Auba has been better since.

flobaba

RowJimmy he'd do you.

goon

QuincyAbeyie

Even then I ’m not sure the facts really bear that out. In his best season he scored 16 in 38 games. Jesus scored 11 in 26.

Jesus’ numbers look pretty poor this season so far (in the league) but fitness permitting I’d back him to get the 11 or 12 goals Giroud got in some of his poor seasons pretty comfortably.

I will say one thing, I’d love it if just one of our guys learnt to make a near post run that Giroud use to make and get in front of their man from time to time.

Lukazan

I never liked him much, partly because yes it was very jarring going from the likes of Wright, Bergkamp, Anelka, Thierry and RVP to him but also because he always came across like a complete prick and my opinion on that hasn't changed. I also hated that despite him being very strong and good with his back to goal, other times it seemed he couldn't stay on his feet at all. Would also stay down and whine alot. When he was going through those phases he was unbearable.

He did improve massively all the way throughout his time here though and overall finished up underrated by Arsenal fans. I remember a lot of my mates used to rave about him and couldn't understand why I didn't think much to him.

He was very good at nabbing goals when we weren't playing well and not really in games and often did that when we were behind to ignite a comeback.

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