Qwiss I agree with this he's an okay squad player but it should have been 20m and much lower wages. That was a massive fuck up on valuation by us and that does seem to be impacting what we are able to do. Consistency is key for quality players so a nice run for 6 months doesn't change that his overall career in the prem pretty much shows his level and her isn't reliable as a goalscorer.
Official: Mikel Arteta is the new Arsenal manager.
Gazza M Fully agree with this. This could be an indication of any number of things - that the last 2 years were an incredible purple patch, that Arteta doesn't have the resilience to come good when there's a little headwind of either injuries or bad refereeing, or that this is a one-off shitstorm from which he can come back with 1 good summer. Next season will give us the answer (assuming our hands are not tied behind our back financially) and that's the time to make the relevant judgment. If we are not up there and challenging in January 2026, I'd look to bring in another manager and give him the summer to recruit as he wants.
awooga83 I agree with this he's an okay squad player but it should have been 20m and much lower wages.
You genuinely can't get Havertz for £20m in today's football. And you can see why, granted his finishing has been average but his athleticism and work rate are outlandish for a man his size.
It's one of those cases where a Vlahović or Šeško shows up and certainly isn't transformational by comparison. I would still rather go in for a gun left winger who can play with Havertz.
There are reasons to believe things will get better next season. Liverpool should be slightly weaker or on par with their ageing squad and contract / retention issues, and City may be sanctioned.
You have to hope there is the next mile of investment from KSE, because in the last twenty years the league conditions have rarely looked like a better opportunity for Arsenal to win a couple of titles than they do now.
Nketiah moved for 30m.
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Burnwinter you are right you don't get Havertz for £20m but you should be able to get someone like that for £35-40m. £65m and worst of all his ludicrous wages was just bad business. We have a few too many cases in the squad of players we overpaid for even though they are decent players and according to reports and our apparent lack of signings this season its costing us in the market long term.
Burnwinter fair but if it was going to be 65m we should have walked that was never worth it.
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Burnwinter you're right, Havertz is worth more than £20m. In fact, with his age profile, CL winners medal and being a full fledged international international for Germany, he's automatically at least at the £40m-50m mark.
But the question is around the opportunity cost he represents.
FWIW I've defend Havertz a lot - he's a solid player but it doesn't look like we had a plan for him. I'd happily still keep him in the squad and bin Jesus
I really like Arteta, always have, I believe he will end up being a very successful manager. His football needs to evolve though. A lot of focus on his signings or lack thereof. There have been mitigating circumstances, injuries and ridiculous decisions again us. However, it is always a concern when a manager is unable to get his players to perform at the level they can despite the challenges. I think this team/ squad despite its shortcomings should be performing way better. He needs to bring the joy back in the football they are playing, more of the same will not work.
I'm not a huge fan of Havertz for us. For every good/different attribute he brings to the team, I feel there are as many weaknesses that require others in the team to compensate for. He was brought in as a midfielder and I rarely recall any performances from that position that justify our investment in him. His switch up top due to circumstances did suggest a a possible fit with some of his best contributions, but over time it is not consistent enough. I feel sorry as I believe he has been asked to fulfil a hybrid midfielder forward role with a lot of off the ball movement that probably leaves him too tired to be truly clinical when it counts alongside having to jostle with opposing CBs must be physically draining as well. I also think having both him and Merino on the pitch at the same time doesn't work either. Maybe if he went back into midfield and we had a striker that could hold the ball up while offering a threat, then Havertz could flourish again as an attacking midfielder but I fail to see a real starting option in him.
I don't see the team as just being a couple of players away from getting everything to click again as believe that there needs to be a shift in our systems to go alongside any new additions to address our slump in form. While not a big fan of Arteta, he has made the team incredibly resilient and pushed the team to feel like anything less than 2nd is a drop and that not winning is a major disappointment, which is a sign of how far along he has brought the team. This is also his first managerial role so not only has he had to learn to build a team, he is also going to have to learn what many more experienced managers have failed to do, which is rebuild a team when the first one starts to fade. There will be elements of his current philosophy that he will have to learn to compromise if he wants longevity in the role. I think after a hard couple of years both physically and mentally, the players may find it easier to respond with a loosening of the rigidity with which appear to play with. I also think we need more than just one new attacker to refresh our attacking options and invite the challenge of creating new attacking patterns for us and for oppositions to figure out how to stop.
awooga83 I think he does, but you need the right people around him. Just like Odegaard, just like Martinelli, just like anyone in world football that isn't named Bukayo Saka. I also don't think the main attack is just the players that start the CL final. It's more than that, and he could provide excellent balance to a set of attackers that had more complimentary attributes.
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Mirth But the question is around the opportunity cost he represents.
Right. Our current question is whether we try to dispense with these opportunity costs by upgrading Havertz or Martinelli, or change our attacking approach more drastically.
Havertz's role is much freer, which means we could basically put any alternative player there and they just have to make a better contribution. Not easy as Havertz does a counterintuitive amount of stuff, but not so hard.
Martinelli's role is much more of a team role (he creates width) which means we'd ideally replace him with a guy who does everything he does but is also much better one on one and a less anxious, more intelligent finisher. Sadly this describes a version of Thierry Henry who also does Arteta levels of defensive and tactical work, like all those selfless left flank or cutback runs to nowhere Martinelli is always doing.
Who? For example, Nico Williams might well not be good enough to fit the description.
So you know, conceptually, I would prefer to upgrade Martinelli but that's probably just because in my mind, we are signing a far better player if we do—because we'd have to.
But in practice, I suspect we upgrade Havertz and make him what he is, the ultimate utility lunk.
As for changing our approach more drastically … an imaginary elite striker who's a great runner, great on the ball, great at finishing and works hard will automatically change it.
I can't see us changing our basic approach. That is extreme territorial domination and pressing, with reliance on volume of key passes and set pieces to get the goals.
We need this approach to be dominant in the Premier League, which is now stacked with clubs that defend deep and compact with great organisation compared to a decade ago. We need 5–6 players joining the attack and we need to score through congestion.
The other option Burnsy is to get a magician in the left sided attacking midfielder position. Someone like Wirtz
Burnwinter but how does Liverpool make their games so stretched (for their benefit)?
I don't watch them in detail often. Do they sit deep and invite the opposition onto them (while keeping Salah high)? Is it as basic as that?
lorddulaarsenal yep the LCM role is as major a problem as the LWF role.
Havertz is a real donkey right now but I'd argue upgrading him is what we should do once the other two have been dealt with.
Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert Yes. They also move the ball more slowly in their own half (as counter-intuitive as that sounds), which is another way of saying what you said, which is inviting the opposition on to them. They also have the "passer from deep" in TAA, who is able to get the ball moving quickly when they spot a hole (a la Partey at his best) and a carrier in Gravenberch (we don't really have an equivalent). They press much less (rank 20th in total distance covered per 90 this season, compared to 9th in 2023/24) and have their attackers much higher than ours. Finally, they utilize the entire pitch and not just the flanks, as we seem to do. But for VVD's great form this season, they would have conceded far more than us as well, but they haven't quite.