RocktheCasbah I recognise that this year has been tough injuries, marginal decisions etc going against us that do make a difference. But that's why I'd you get the conditions that favour you which I think you could probably argue in terms of the team we managed to get a pretty good amount of that for the two years prior it's so important to finish the job in those seasons and win because inevitably it's going to be hard replicate that but least because some of the variables are out of your control. So I look back on those 2 seasons at the moment and think have we missed our chance already.

I think the view on Arteta would be based on do we win something this year. I don't think a league cup is really in the bracket of a good sign but if we delivered that then I think you could make the case that you are on a road to winning more. If we don't win anything then for me the 5 year plan and investment would have to be running behind what we are aiming for and there should be questions about is Arteta capable to take us to the next level.. He's got us here in the mix but there still is a question can he take the final step.

I accept changing managers it's risky but you shouldn't choose not to do it just out of fear. If you want to reach the point is winning things you do have to take risks. I would be seriously considering it at the end of this season if we end up without any trophies and the minimum objective for the next season has to be to deliver one of the big trophies that has to be the target.

RocktheCasbah I think all fair points and particularly in the champions League and Europe Arteta has really struggled in those competitions. To be fair Arsenal have underachieved generally in these but his managerial machine like approach which has done well in the league does not seem to have crossed over to the more tactical battles of European football. Porto, Bayern, Atalanta and inter away we've failed to score and really not looked very threatening so that's something more then a bad day and seems to be more about our approach to these games. Maybe against better opposition that marginal game strategy can come unstuck a little too easily.

JazzG How many strikers moved in the summer that would have improved on Havertz?

Are we back to this nonsense? There were half a dozen players who either moved or could have been moved that would have been reasonable or better signings.

Sicario2 - Tier 1 Who would I replace him with? How about the guy that beat him on Wed night

Go on then. Yes or no, you'd replace Arteta with Inzaghi in the following situations:

1. Now
2. Last summer
3. Next summer (if we don't win the league or Champions League)

Burnwinter would look at guys like Xavi, Motta, Michel etc before him. Options exist as long as we continue to build the playing personnel properly.

Claudius I'm surprised anyone would even consider replacing him at this moment. We'd have to drop off a lot further this season with evidence of dressing room issues for me to think of it.

Beyond that if KSE is not lining up a new coach and structure and plan and spending, all this "he has to deliver" stuff is just posturing. Arteta always has to deliver. I've been anxious about us closing out a title with this playing group since at least 22–23. It's pretty tragic we've only come close twice, but it's Arteta who gets the credit for us getting so close.

The kind of thing that would change my mind swiftly on this would be if Ødegaard or Saka had a public dispute with Arteta.

For me we’d have to drop out of contention for two seasons, or if we saw disputes as Burnsy states, or if we start losing players like when guys like Cesc and RvP jumped ship.

Claudius Gyokres, Osimhen, Solanke, Toney, Isak, etc We need 2 strikers. How do they compare to Jesus?

Burnwinter if we drop him now we're back to square one. I have my criticisms of Artefacts a, he has his blind spots but calling to change manager now is just nonsense.

Qwiss you know how I compare transfers. Can only discuss Solanke and Toney from this list as they made actual moves. Toney is earning £500,000 a week, so let’s end that discussion with immediate effect.

I think Solanke is better than this version of Jesus, but then you enter the zone of would I rather have a 6/10 player like Solanke in the hand or the money available to go after some of the other targets folks have mentioned in case they become available, like an Isak, Williams, Gyokeres etc.

Qwiss If you're gonna bang on ominously about "Arteta has to deliver" you've gotta have your "or else" ready otherwise you're just shit-talking.

Qwiss Are we back to this nonsense? There were half a dozen players who either moved or could have been moved that would have been reasonable or better signings.

We don't need a reasonable signing up top, we need someone to lift our level or a shit hot prospect. We tried for Sesko and couldn't get that deal done. The only strikers imo who were clearly better than Havertz that moved this window were Mbappe and Osimhen on loan.

Anyway our problem isn't to do with our striker, our problem is not signing a top class wide player but most importantly not signing a top class CM who can control the game. I think Merino will play a role for us but he is more backup than starter imo. I think Odegaard's injury has also exposed that we are short there and we let ESR go and Vieira go on loan.