Burnwinter Thing is, calling this new precarity a result of the failures of the historical left gets it backwards: we only understand with certainty that this situation sucks because of what was achieved historically.

Maybe. Maybe. But I remain unconvinced that we are doing anything but accept the terms of capital to win relatively minor concessions for a privileged few. I also remain unconvinced that life was so horrible before capitalism that its terms cannot be more systematically challenged. What bugs me is the idea that we should be grateful for a 40-hour work week because it could be worse, when it currently is so much worse for so many precisely because capitalists can afford us to have that 40-hour work week at the periphery's expense. That doesn't seem like a victory for the left, but for capital, or perhaps more precisely, the dynamics of an exploitative global labor market.

      All businesses are obligated by law to provide 4 weeks of paid holiday here. Certainly nothing luxurious about it. If anything, many employees might be pressured into taking some of that time during Christmas since there's less work to do.

      Burnwinter the balls to write this after long posts arguing that it’s fine to shoot people because life is unfair 😂

      Online Lenins unite!

        Weird interpretation of his posts, but I guess "so you're fine with mass-murderers being shot" doesn't have the same edge to it.

        You’re right man, let’s shoot all the “mass-murderers”. And you get to decide who they are.

        Let’s blame the unregulated crooks for doing what voters allow them to do. Let’s not blame over half the country that believes if you’re poor and can’t pay your medical bills, you deserve to die. Just ignore that issue and keep shooting CEOs, surely something will change.

          Gurgen Let’s not blame over half the country that believes if you’re poor and can’t pay your medical bills, you deserve to die.

          I'm a simple soul. If a big business has established practices that inflict a huge human cost for a huge profit, I first blame the people who own and run the business and are making all the money.

          Deranged view, I know. Overcomplicating things the way I always do. Practically frothing at the mouth with my bloodthirsty online Leninism.

            Seeing photos of this guy in court today and it all looks like one big bloody joke to him and his cult following.

            We have people who now think these CEOs are like mass murderers so am guessing they think this fair game. People have lost their fucking minds.

            The problem isn’t just the healthcare companies, it’s the laws that govern them. Successive American governments have allowed them to take the piss. You'd hope the new government will look into it but killing a ceo should not be the way to bring about change.

            Do you think the people killed by UnitedHealthcare are morally defensible because the law allows them to kill people?

            That the CEO is a mass murderer doesn't mean I think Luigi shouldn't be sentenced. I'm against death penalty.

              It's a red herring whether what Mangione did (who as I've said previously seems to be politically incoherent) is "good" or "evil". You can't so easily extrapolate from such a judgement to a politics, even if because he's photogenic he's becoming a lightning rod for mass resentment of the health system.

              Instead, it's more about how we choose to explain for ourselves why anyone would get upset about a CEO taking a bullet, supposing they then tacitly accept the same CEO's company denying its customers life-saving treatments at the highest rate in its industry and thereby hastening the deaths of thousands.

              The sarcasm of "because life isn't fair" amounts to a reactionary doubling down on these failures. There's no utopianism when the US implementing similar systems to those which exist in most other OECD nations would be a big improvement.

                Burnwinter Instead, it's more about how we choose to explain for ourselves why anyone would get upset about a CEO taking a bullet, supposing they then tacitly accept the same CEO's company denying its customers life-saving treatments at the highest rate in its industry and thereby hastening the deaths of thousands.

                What? You are making an unnecessary leap here. It's not about that at all. Not even slightly.

                You can't say it's not about good and evil, and then play some kind of cosmic morality card.

                You were right the first time. It's about ethics, not universal truths. Frameworks for living together in our societies. Neither framework that the players in this particular melodrama suggest is particularly compelling to me.

                    QuincyAbeyie Yes like @Gurgen says we should let you decide who we label as mass murderers now. Maybe we should go and shoot all the unethical pharmaceutical CEOs as well while we are at it.

                        JazzG we should go and shoot all the unethical pharmaceutical CEOs as well while we are at it.

                        Do it!

                          The speculation and panic in this thread is still about the one CEO who got shot and whether that'll be repeated. It hasn't been though.

                          But since we started discussing this news item hundreds if not thousands of questionable health insurance claim denials will already have been handed to patients with life-threatening illnesses in the United States.

                          There is plenty of long-standing insider insight into the sector showing that its leaders and investors deny access to vital health care for profit with full knowledge of what they're doing.

                          Coombs You were right the first time. It's about ethics, not universal truths. Frameworks for living together in our societies. Neither framework that the players in this particular melodrama suggest is particularly compelling to me.

                          I agree, we wandered off into the type of polarised rhetoric that belongs to the powerless. It happens. Even if I reckon assassinating a string of CEOs could be justified, I don't imagine repeating Mangione's specific act would do anything good.

                          Revisiting the politics of healthcare reform in the United States over the past week or two, I found the extreme degree of federal capture disturbing. I can't see the Democrats seeking a mandate for the proper changes at that level, seems to be the same story for many other policy areas.

                              Burnwinter There is plenty of long-standing insider insight into the sector showing that its leaders and investors deny access to vital health care for profit with full knowledge of what they're doing.

                              And it's even worse than that when you realize that the outsider outsight shows that they are often operating in accordance with the law when doing so. Shareholder primacy results in a fiduciary duty that essentially demands denial of coverage whenever possible. Sure, they deny care illegally on a routine basis, but there are plenty of legal ways to do it, too. For instance, employers often opt to provide cheaper, self-funded plans to their employees that are exempt from state laws, a type of plan offered by - you guessed it - UnitedHealthcare. They can claim bogus, vague reasons like "lack of medical evidence" or what-have-you and put the burden of proof on the patient.

                              The law in this country is built to deny health coverage for profit.

                              A stupid example: I went for an annual checkup last year and my old primary had retired. New guy checks my ears, and casually recommended a wax removal as there was some obstruction, said we could just get it done then and there. I'm on a state research university's basic health plan as full time faculty.

                              A few days later, got a bill for $1,500...no mistake. That shit was legitimately not covered. Had to be on the premium plan and even then I'd have to pay some amount out of pocket. It didn't even occur to me that I was having a "minor procedure" because it was so casual and off the cuff in the moment. Just squirting some salinated water into my ear. This place is fucking wild.

                                  There is a certain degree of privilege in being able to follow the absolute "moral" approach to any conflict. Hence when judging the principal actors an analysis of the level of privilege involved is always necessary.

                                  Mangione deserves to be tried and should probably be convicted if found guilty (he's admitted not guilty so just wait for the trial). But his actions must be viewed from the lens of someone in his position, not from us who've never had anything close to the motive for what he ended up doing.

                                  My first instinct is always that we should never condone murder. Yet I am open to violent acts being committed by the oppressed. Like in Palestine. Like Haiti in the past. Like South Africa in the past. Victims of societal violence. They have tried every outlet to change things.

                                  Injustice is just slow violence. Let's not pretend there's not been all the different tried ways to reform healthcare in the US. Everybody knows it's broken except the most privileged, even those outside the States. Through that lens, I can perfectly understand that while he should be punished, Mangione would nevertheless be seen as a hero.

                                  Coombs sorry to, wait for it... Hear this!

                                  Seriously though the health/pharma industry is just a huge scam. No amount of assassination will help. These folks will simply upgrade their personal security detail. Too much money and too much corruption involved. It's depressing. There's people I know who have fallen into a life of virtually unpayable debt due to a surprise/emergency medical bill.