I don't really care if they make the wrong decisions on purpose because they're paid money for it or because they get a hard-on from it. I have an issue with them making the wrong decision on purpose, which it absolutely is if a VAR referee takes a decision to support his mate instead of what he thinks is right in isolation.
What reforms are needed re: refereeing in the PL
That’s not corruption, mate
Apologies, I should specify that what I care about is them making wrong decisions on purpose.
QuincyAbeyie you don’t even know if they’re making them on purpose. What you know is the outcome. We can all agree that the outcome is incorrect decisions and it’s detrimental to rhe game. But how do you know that they go out with conscious intent to cheat
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Claudius when you said "they will want us to know who is boss down the line" it sure sounded like they would want to make decisions that let us know who is boss. Did you just mean that they will let us know who is boss by trying to ref as fairly as possible as if nothing has happened?
If the VAR ref thinks one thing and says another to the on-field ref to back him, that's on purpose. Just the "don't want to re-referee the game" thing is admitting that they make decisions they don't agree with, i.e making decisions they know is wrong. Surely you don't think it's actually PGMOL's opinion that MLS should get a red card even if they say so. They would've back Oliver if he gave a yellow as well.
QuincyAbeyie like I’ve said before. I don’t think there is some grand conspiracy. These people are human. Have you ever been pissed off or felt insulted by someone. You want to show them. You might not go out with a specific grand plan but you’ll enter the room with baggage.
I think these guys are badly trained on a lot of these things. Biases, communication etc. I just say this cos I see this in corporate environments with people who are incredibly educated and make millions. There is no grand plan - just bad impulse control and dialogue. And it leads to a lot of suboptimal outcomes.
These refs have a lot of responsibility. They need to go out onto a field with teams and fans they have histories with in high pressure environments, and make split second decisions. The animal will often win in these circumstances
Claudius like I’ve said before. I don’t think there is some grand conspiracy. These people are human. Have you ever been pissed off or felt insulted by someone. You want to show them. You might not go out with a specific grand plan but you’ll enter the room with baggage.
That's making a wrong decision on purpose. Even though biases can't be eliminated, they know. I might support my girlfriend in a discussion because she's my girlfriend, but I'll still know that I don't actually think she's right.
If you think PGMOL actually do think there's nothing wrong with the red card and don't even realize that they let fouls that pass all the time, due to their biases, that's possibly even more alarming.
They are absolutely, 100%, without a shadow of a doubt, making incorrect decisions on purpose. They implicitly admit to it with their cowardly "clear and obvious" and "re-refereeing" rhetoric. They act like they aren't the ones who devised those ridiculous notions in the first place!
As for corruption, of course they are corrupt. They have shown a willingness to act dishonestly for personal gain. Brown paper bags are for film noir, not real life. You can't arbitrarily make up the definition of corruption.
As I've said before, the "they're only human" argument is bunk. Humans are not so pathetic as all that. Humans are fully capable of managing their biases. If these ones aren't, they're unfit for the work.
If you think they’re not corrupt then you must think a referee at this level can actually be this bad at his job. I don’t believe that. They know very well that what they’re doing is outrageous and wrong.
Refs from outside of England.
A ban on moonlighting in any other club games, friendly or not. Official internationals only.
Short contracts, 1 or 2 seasons, with a major panel review at the end of the contract.
Give VAR more teeth to overrule poor refereeing.
Pay them more to compensate for more accountability and attract the best refs from around the world.
All of the suggestions in this thread make sense. One key thing in my eyes that will not / cannot be easily reformed is the lack of serious (sports) journalism in the UK. The lack of accountability exists partly because certain members of the press keep defending their buddies in the refereeing corps and are unwilling to be critical where it counts, let alone do any serious investigation into these refs, their motivations, incentives and conflicting interests. It seems like the UK sports journalist exists to travel around the country and attend games with his mates, not to speak truth to power.
Gurgen It is like an old boys club, back in the day Fergie was the chairman of that club with journalists and refs happy to try and bend reality to his will.
Social media has many faults but one thing it is proving it these bullshiters are getting called out publicly and they have no place to hide. The Mirror just put out a hit piece on MLS and Arsenal Twitter hounded them into deleting it, that would not happen 20 years ago.
Triple their wages. Attract talented people.
Kel Varnsen expand the team. Tired of seeing the same sleepy fools in every game every weekend.
- Professionalism and probity.
1a. Increase referees' salary to an executive level.
1b. Prohibit other forms of income, with a system of monitoring and mandatory declarations of gifts and other benefits.
1c. A complete ban on media appearances and public comment for active referees.
- Quality.
2a. Specialisation. Establish the description of match day, VAR and lino roles, and stop pretending the same people can carry out these functions interchangeably.
2b. Standards. Establish stringent annual recertification requirements for referees, monitoring decision accuracy via high volume simulations, testing physical fitness and addressing questions of character as necessary.
2c. Consequences. Remove those officials who fail to meet the requirements twice.
2d. Development. Rotate senior, currently certified referees into a fractional training roster to train and mentor their replacements, including probationary periods under supervision for the top flight.
- Laws and decisions.
3a. Make the VAR accountable for the outcome of handball, offside, goal line and corner decisions (and other "low discretion" decisions), and also empowered and expected to intervene overruling the match day referee as necessary.
3b. Make the match day referee accountable for cards, penalties and free kicks, including responsibility for asking for VAR support, reviewing any provided video as necessary, and unifying the on and off field evidence to inform the decision. The match day referee's decision is never "overturned" because they are responsible for correcting their own errors.
3c. A continuous independent review of all decisions made by both VARs and match day referees. Decisions deemed contentious are flagged and the number of flagged decisions is publicly advertised.
The more I think about it, just create a separate developmental pool of VAR referees. Get them from other leagues and stick them in the control room. This immediately breaks all the hierarchies, and hopefully makes VAR effective.
I think VAR is incredible but many of you guys have either implemented or being on the end of large technology interventions. If you don't focus on the people, prcesses and decision making, you're fucked