Claudius Debate: i think one of the big issues here is that once a referee has leaned in and given a decision (penalty, red card), we rarely see him reverse it due to this idea that "we do not want to re-referee the game". that's incredibly stupid. you've spent millions on technology and extra eyes. use it, and create an environment where it's okay to tell the leader that "hey, you got it wrong, we are going to reverse your decision". and also lean on data to encourage referees to take a second look.

Absolutely this. The point of it should be to ensure the correct decision, not to back up the mate in the middle. We're all human and you can't get everything right in real time, that's why the technology should be there. Football could learn a lot from how it works in say cricket or rugby where there is no problem with reversing the on field decision if the replays show it to be wrong and you generally get to hear the whole discussion explaining the decision on TV too.

    Claudius

    That's how a firm's organised. The executives lead the various business activities, the Board oversees the executives with the purpose of challenging them, the second-line is tasked with ensuring risk is correctly identified and mitigated, and the third line audits aspects of the business as an additional layer of security. That's three layers of defence against poor decisions, notwithstanding the business which should have it's own measures in place to identify and mitigate all forms of risk.

    The risk of a wrong decision will always exist. VAR was supposed to come in and mitigate that risk by correcting the ref when necessary. Instead, they're in cahoots with each other, when they should be independent from one another. The sad thing is we're more likely to see VAR removed from the game before there's any reform. Blaming the tool instead of the people using the tool.

      In a surprise to literally no one besides Oliver and the PGMOL. Good news for MLS and the club, but lets see how this shakes out with PGMOL. They will not be too happy about it.

        USArsenal casting my mind back to the game, I’m actually really annoyed. Not only did they dismiss MLS, we had to sacrifice Nwaneri. They denied two children an opportunity to grow. It’s heinous.

        I wonder if there’ll tread carefully around us for a few weeks given the media attention. They will want us to know who is boss down the line though. They will not enjoy being fucked around with

            They’ll give us a dodgy penalty or something so that they can counter the claims of bias. Then it will start again

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            Claudius I wonder if there’ll tread carefully around us for a few weeks given the media attention. They will want us to know who is boss down the line though. They will not enjoy being fucked around with

            Are you sure you don't think these guys are corrupt? 😃

                • Tam

                • Post #17

                USArsenal they won’t be surprised by it. They absolutely know what’s what.

                  • Tam

                  • Post #18

                  Claudius Not only did they dismiss MLS, we had to sacrifice Nwaneri. They denied two children an opportunity to grow. It’s heinous.

                  This is a bit of a reach. Denied two children. Heinous. Really?

                  It’s a terrible decision. I actually don’t think it’s the worst in recent years. The only reason I think the footballing world has thrown their collective toys out the pram is because they know their player could have been the one making that tackle. MLS could have been any one of the dozens of players up and down the country every weekend making tackles like that, so they’re now exposed.

                  Martinelli’s double yellow? Rice’s time wasting red? Trossard’s time wasting red? Saliba’s header? Those don’t happen to other clubs so they’ve been amusing incidents that don’t threaten them in any way. Now it’s real though, now it could be them.

                    QuincyAbeyie i associate corruption with misuse of office for favors/cash.

                    I don't think that is what is happening here. What is happening seems to be an abuse of power. They've created a small, closed group that holds an inordinate amount of power over a larger group. They know they have leverage because they are a valuable resource so should typically be tricky to replace. This power means that they can go unchecked. But until I find solid evidence that they are being paid to throw games, I will avoid calling them corrupt.

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                        • Tam

                        • Post #20

                        Claudius I agree with you. The Middle Eastern earnings do make it a bit murky but I don’t think it’s straight corruption. It’s a system which benefits referee’s reputations over that of football.

                          I don't really care if they make the wrong decisions on purpose because they're paid money for it or because they get a hard-on from it. I have an issue with them making the wrong decision on purpose, which it absolutely is if a VAR referee takes a decision to support his mate instead of what he thinks is right in isolation.

                          That’s not corruption, mate

                          Apologies, I should specify that what I care about is them making wrong decisions on purpose.

                            QuincyAbeyie you don’t even know if they’re making them on purpose. What you know is the outcome. We can all agree that the outcome is incorrect decisions and it’s detrimental to rhe game. But how do you know that they go out with conscious intent to cheat

                                Claudius when you said "they will want us to know who is boss down the line" it sure sounded like they would want to make decisions that let us know who is boss. Did you just mean that they will let us know who is boss by trying to ref as fairly as possible as if nothing has happened?

                                If the VAR ref thinks one thing and says another to the on-field ref to back him, that's on purpose. Just the "don't want to re-referee the game" thing is admitting that they make decisions they don't agree with, i.e making decisions they know is wrong. Surely you don't think it's actually PGMOL's opinion that MLS should get a red card even if they say so. They would've back Oliver if he gave a yellow as well.

                                    QuincyAbeyie like I’ve said before. I don’t think there is some grand conspiracy. These people are human. Have you ever been pissed off or felt insulted by someone. You want to show them. You might not go out with a specific grand plan but you’ll enter the room with baggage.

                                    I think these guys are badly trained on a lot of these things. Biases, communication etc. I just say this cos I see this in corporate environments with people who are incredibly educated and make millions. There is no grand plan - just bad impulse control and dialogue. And it leads to a lot of suboptimal outcomes.

                                    These refs have a lot of responsibility. They need to go out onto a field with teams and fans they have histories with in high pressure environments, and make split second decisions. The animal will often win in these circumstances

                                        Claudius

                                        Claudius like I’ve said before. I don’t think there is some grand conspiracy. These people are human. Have you ever been pissed off or felt insulted by someone. You want to show them. You might not go out with a specific grand plan but you’ll enter the room with baggage.

                                        That's making a wrong decision on purpose. Even though biases can't be eliminated, they know. I might support my girlfriend in a discussion because she's my girlfriend, but I'll still know that I don't actually think she's right.

                                        If you think PGMOL actually do think there's nothing wrong with the red card and don't even realize that they let fouls that pass all the time, due to their biases, that's possibly even more alarming.

                                            They are absolutely, 100%, without a shadow of a doubt, making incorrect decisions on purpose. They implicitly admit to it with their cowardly "clear and obvious" and "re-refereeing" rhetoric. They act like they aren't the ones who devised those ridiculous notions in the first place!

                                            As for corruption, of course they are corrupt. They have shown a willingness to act dishonestly for personal gain. Brown paper bags are for film noir, not real life. You can't arbitrarily make up the definition of corruption.

                                            As I've said before, the "they're only human" argument is bunk. Humans are not so pathetic as all that. Humans are fully capable of managing their biases. If these ones aren't, they're unfit for the work.

                                            If you think they’re not corrupt then you must think a referee at this level can actually be this bad at his job. I don’t believe that. They know very well that what they’re doing is outrageous and wrong.