Burnwinter I think even corruption in some informal sense like referees chatting in WhatsApp about Arsenal specifically seems unlikely to me in that they are like we need to make an example. Fair enough if the point isn't really about arsenal but lot of the discourse elsewhere seems to be the idea it's just us which I just don't agree with.

As mdgoonah41 outlined there are so many people involved in football and none of them might think it was wrong or not be an Arsenal fan of some sort I don't think that's credible personally.

James on arsecast made a point a few weeks back on this type of topic which was basically I don't think referees are very much different today then from 30 years ago. They are essentially performing as they always have but there is so much more scrutiny and instant clips even fans can now post a clip compared to some incident we experienced and say cheating etc which also shapes people's views on this stuff even if it's inconsistency which is the frustration. I certainly felt that was fair I don't remember 90s being a golden age for referees.

I agree that as an organisation I don't think they are set up to be genuinely open and trying to improve things as everything always seems to be justifying what happend (for all clubs) and that's not a healthy place for any organisation to be in.

With VAR I wish they would just free them from this on the side role, let them be able to take decisions like in other sports they could talk to the ref as the game is going on you've missed this challenge it's a whatever offence you need to book player x when you get a chance. This stupid limited intervention approach and not wanting to impact the on field ref is a stupid way of doing it for me.

        awooga83 James on arsecast made a point a few weeks back on this type of topic which was basically I don't think referees are very much different today then from 30 years ago. They are essentially performing as they always have but there is so much more scrutiny

        I made a post covering this ground a couple of weeks ago. Back in the 90s the main qualities a ref needed were fitness, personal authority, emotional resilience and a good knowledge of the laws, a decision once taken was hard to critique, you wouldn't have alternate footage or the internet etc, so refs were decent at their jobs and beyond that just had very thick hides.

        Thing is, that's actually got to change now we've got the same sort of referees making decisions that are provably incorrect on a fairly regular basis. The next thing is, the way PGMOL's operating seems to be set up to protect an anxious cohort of referees who aren't quite up to scratch.

        We've had some seriously embarrassing situations, such as the VAR who didn't draw the offside lines—quite a few of these guys seem to be behind the pace but instead of fixing that, they've made up a complex system of penalties for complaints, mostly unsuccessful appeals and systematic PGMOL excuse-making. And they're still making a bloody hash of it.

            But how can one "forget" to draw lines? How can one look at someone smashing his forearm into a player's head and say "he didn't use it as a weapon"? How can one say "he has his hands on his back but there is no push". It defies belief and I don't buy it.

              I agree, it's not solely incompetence. The yellow cards given to Rice and Trossard earlier in the season in decisions that haven't been repeated weren't incompetent, they were pointed and deliberate.

              The smoking gun that would destroy PGMOL would be if it ever came out they'd ever experimented with controversial decisions to "drive engagement" ... I consider it a bit less likely than basic bitch vendettas and meddling, but not impossible.

              Gurgen because they are out to get Arsenal. When it comes to us, there is no incompetence. They know exactly what they are doing.

                Yeah, I have to say I remain dubious about the concept of institutional bias against the Arsenal from the the PGMOL, but I've just finished watching the BBC's Linford documentary and it was a pretty stark reminder that such biases do exist and are propagated in the media.

                  Mirth That's one way to look at it, but since VAR has also affected the way match refs adjudicate, the problem goes all the way down.

                  Still think the "video assist" for decisions requiring discretion and interpretation should just be the match ref enabled with video on the side of the pitch or with a tablet. The league can implement machine systems for offside and goal line decisions—just robot linesmen, then, so no issue and it fits with tradition.

                  Get a bit of accountability back into things as the "clear and obvious error" nonsense creates way too many wicked incentives for the shambles at PGMOL to handle, they're way too busy covering each other's arses to do the right thing, by and large.

                    RocktheCasbah Arguing any bias is specifically "anti-Arsenal" isn't really necessary from my point of view, it's setting the bar for criticism of PGMOL too high. This is an organisation that should be able to prove for its own sake that it delivers high standards of probity and impartiality.

                      Coombs this is what annoys me at the moment. Its gone like political chat when you try to discuss corruption and bias in refereeing. Everyone wants to equate it to some grand conspiracy where the refs are all getting paper bags full of cash in some dark car park after the game. The reality is these refs are being paid by the same people who own City but its all above board and sanctioned by PGMOL. The reality is the refs overwhelmingly come from the same geographical region and look the same. This is an old boys club where they pick people like themselves and allow visible financial incentivising because its good for themselves rather than the league or the game as a whole.

                          Mirth there should be a complete separation of match day refs and var officials for a load of reasons but its pretty obvious the PGMOL don't want to answer to anyone else.

                            Qwiss agree with a lot of this. I think the framing that PGMOL is out of sync with the game is correct. We have a multi billion dollar game, left in the care of a barely professional group of referees who have too much power and very little regulation. That disconnect is the issue for me.
                            On VAR, I am fine with PGMOL running it - just run it better. After all, these are still refereeing decisions, so the analysts need to at least have a refereeing certification in addition to being able to review video quickly. Set some standards for resolution time and clarify what goes to VAR versus not.

                            I really don’t think there’s some anti-Arsenal conspiracy, but the incompetence in the game right now is making a lot of fans think that the referees are acting maliciously

                                Claudius I was going to make a similar point that failings in the governance of the organisation is totally fair. Referees from limited variety of backgrounds as well totally valid that could all be impacting the outcomes.

                                But the idea that any of that is just aimed at Arsenal I think is not credible. That has become the talking point online from fans (not necessarily here) and in podcasts that they specifically hate arsenal and everything that is happening is controlled by this all powerful group just to target us.

                                It's a comforting narrative running through most conspiracy thinking that things would be great if only for the big bad x but ignores that totally mundane things that aren't fully in anyone's control can lead to outcomes you don't like and absolves you of any agency as well.

                                I think that discourse hurts the valid reflections being raised here because it allows people to dismiss all issues if you frame it in the it's all designed because they just hate us and nobody else gets this treatment.

                                  Claudius when @awooga83 said it wasn't any better in the 90s it made me realise that the English game has completely left the refs behind. The clubs are giant corps,, the players earn millions, everything is modern and business like but the refs aren't all that different from the 80s and 90s. This stuff with them on Sky etc is their way of trying to catch up. And new technology like VAR is doomed to fail in their hands. It's like handing a synthesiser to medievil lute player.

                                      Qwiss I've seen comments in this light saying you might need to pay refs more and do that to try to attract the best referees from across the world. I'm the same way every other aspect of the game has gone.

                                        Qwiss Drawing parallels between the Premier league and modern day Britain is a fun thought exercise. The Premier league has a significant soft power advantage and provide an exceptional service but is pressured into taking on investment from increasingly dubious sources to remain in front of European peers. Meanwhile, the Premier league is deeply envious of American institutions and their ability to raise money and wish they could do the same. Nevertheless they've continued to marginalise the local support and price out those who used to believe a season ticket should be achievable for the average working class. This is then regulated by an old boys club who can't seem to avoid conflicts of interest and are stuck in the 80s.

                                          Prepare for joy at the weekend...

                                          It is insane how many times this guy is involved with our matches. And I think it's these things, these micro aggressions, that nobody else notices cos they don't pay attention in the way we do, which really cause us to think so poorly of the PGMOL.

                                            i'd go all nasty tabloid on these mofos if i had the kroenkes resources: PIs digging through trash, tapped phones, hacked devices, etc etc.