PSV vs Arsenal, Tuesday : Page 9 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

PSV vs Arsenal, Tuesday

flobaba

Daz yup. Valuable learning curve acceleration opportunity missed.

flobaba

Jed Bayern are in a totally different situation to us. They just lost 5-1. That's what you call a crisis, and they need(ed) to bounce back strong.

We need to rest our first teamers for what is obviously going to be a grind of a season.

Burnwinter

Jed At the end of the day Mikel is trying to turn this club into a winning one - part of that involves setting elite standards and maintaining those standards consistently meaning even a so-called meaningless match in the Champions League must still be taken seriously and approached in a professional way and that’s fair enough.

It's not really important to reach a final conclusion on this stuff, but from my point of view a well run club always takes the chance to expose its young starlets in competitive football.

The only rationale I see for the way Arteta goes about it is the usual one in his case—he doesn't like to make any moves that reduce his authority, or create special expectations for any player whatsoever. I guess there is some value in that, we certainly don't have any United style discontentment about his practices. But it leads to this making a point of zigging on team selection where another manager might zag. And his justification after the fact is usually "any top, top player needs to [expect this] [do what I say] [buckle the fuck up]" …

RocktheCasbah

The amount of second guessing that this on here with Arteta is mad, you'd have thought we were still plugging away in the Europa League and and still 8th in the Prem. You guys might not like his methods (well, it's clear a lot of you don't), but if you look at the bigger picture, he's doing pretty well, isn't he?

Daz

RocktheCasbah
All I see some folks doing here is pointing out that this squad management is still a clear weakness of Arteta. Nobody's crying "Arteta out" here. Surely we able to discuss his weaknesses while still appreciating his overall achievements and strengths?

Don Pacifico

Burnwinter Then he goes to the post match presser and pats himself on the back for bringing Smith Rowe on for five minutes!

I know you're being flippant but I think that was more to manage his recovery from injury than anything else.

RocktheCasbah I agree with a lot of what you're saying but when we're currently short a bit of depth in some positions and the depth available are youth players that have never played 90 minutes, at some point you have to give them pitch time so they can get a feel for senior football. When today was a dead rubber, there aren't going to be many better chances than this. And we're not talking about 11 youth players coming in, we had three in the squad yesterday.

It's a vicious cycle because by not giving them a chance in matches like this, it gives them even less of a chance being under consideration for matches that are of more importance, which leads to a situation where we're playing Rice at CB, Partey at RB, Cedric at LB and Elneny in midfield. Not only is that a waste of 1 (arguably 2) of our best players but it's an investment in three players who likely won't be around next season. Cedric in particular doesn't suit the way we play, is a level below what's required and is out of contract in the summer. In that situation, I struggle to understand why Walters doesn't get a run-out.

Big Willie

RocktheCasbah you'd have thought we were still plugging away in the Europa League and and still 8th in the Prem

Well even then we'd end up playing every expeienced player we could roll out on a wheelchair ahead of a youth player even in dead rubber EL games or League Cup games. At the time it was we can't play them because we are trying to get back into CL and we don't have the luxury of a settled team to play them. Now it is we can't play them because we aren't 8th and in the EL. Soon it'll be we are competing to win the CL and the PL where every game is must win so no chance to play them.

You're right though, some people will will find ways to be upset wih Arteta no matter what he does. There are also some people who will find a way of justifying everything he does at any given moment.

Burnwinter

Second guessing or whatever it is you're doing (preemptive, emotive third guessing, is it?), the tragedy is that among football followers, it's all fair game Paul. Merry Christmas amigo 🎄

RocktheCasbah

Burnwinter Second guessing or whatever it is you're doing (preemptive, emotive third guessing, is it?), the tragedy is that among football followers, it's all fair game Paul. Merry Christmas amigo

Wow.

You've got me in knots here trying to work out why you've tacked a Merry Christmas message onto the end of this post. I'm not second (or even third) guessing, I've heard and read what Arteta had to say post match and I'm taking it at face value. He's explained why he did what he did, I'm good with it. Of course, the rest of you have the right not to be - I just think there is a slight overreaction going on here. It leads me to believe that I think I probably trust Arteta in ways that you (the royal you) don't quite yet - and maybe never will.

And a Merry Christmas to you too.

RocktheCasbah

Don Pacifico I agree with a lot of what you're saying but when we're currently short a bit of depth in some positions and the depth available are youth players that have never played 90 minutes, at some point you have to give them pitch time so they can get a feel for senior football. When today was a dead rubber, there aren't going to be many better chances than this. And we're not talking about 11 youth players coming in, we had three in the squad yesterday.

I guess I just think that this is Arsenal Football Club and minutes shouldn't just be handed out to players, they need to be earned. Clarence said yesterday "I feel so sorry for our young players" or words to that effect. Do we really think they wouldn't have been happy just to have been on the plane and around the squad for a European matchday? Nwanweri is 16 for God's sake, it's not like there isn't, and won't be, time to blood him. Of course they would have wanted to play, but the reality is they're playing for a club in the process of reestablishing itself as a domestic and European superpower - they aren't going to be "given" chances - and nor should they be.

I say all that and I do generally agree with the point that giving minutes to someone like Cedric seems like a waste of everyone's time, but I guess the reality of our situation is that if Ben White goes down with an injury, he is the next cab off the rank for now, so we do need to get some minutes into his legs.

For Walters, it must be a case of close, but yet so far as he seems to have been around the squad for ages now without being given a chance.

goon

Yeah, I’m not getting hung up over this, but I’ve always hated giving time to waste of space squad players with no future vs genuine talent.

Despite the rose tinted view, Wenger was the same in his latter years, especially when his squad become too big.

FEBravo

I think it's up to him and there can be different views and he's the manager so fair.

My concern is more the shit he spews in the media and then does something else, like the subbing goalkeeper shit. Now he may have his reasons for saying things to the media, what is more important is what he's communicating internally. If he clearly told Ramsdale he was second choice, or these kids that they are traveling but are unlikely to feature unless we're 2 goals up, etc., then it's all good. And we can agree or disagree. If he's sending the same messages internally and then doing different shit, then that could be more problematic long term. In fairness to him, we have no evidence of that.

Clrnc

RocktheCasbah Do we really think they wouldn't have been happy just to have been on the plane and around the squad for a European matchday?

Yeah, like what Burns said they are not stupid, they would have seen the reports about how they would possibly have minutes. Tons of reports that Walters would start too. Why would they be happy to just travel and not play when this is not the first time they are in a CL squad? Even at 5 goals up they didn't get a look in at all last match day.

This is Arsenal football club. We are used to blooding our future young players. Ever since Emery gave debuts to Saka Martinelli ESR etc in the last 4.5 years we hardly brought in any hale end academy players.

Lamine Yamal just turned 16 but is already starting ahead of 65m Raphinha. You think that will happen here?

HomeSteak

RocktheCasbah
You can't make an argument against giving young players minutes like this:

minutes shouldn't just be handed out to players

When minutes are literally just handed out to crap players like Cedric and Elneny. I know Elneny for some reason is a fan favorite here, but the reality is he has not contributed to Arsenal Football Club in years. Last year he got like 300 minutes all season, not even 4 games worth of minutes. The season before that he got like 11 games worth of minutes, even that beacuse Partey was out(some in the Europa League), before that he was out on loan. The last time he was a somehow usable player(crap but at least he was fit not like Partey) for us was in 2020.

And then we get to our boy, Cedric, our very own charity case. a guy that Fulham said "yeah no thanks, he is beyond shit". He played 3 minutes this year before yesterday...just this week there was news that we will pay him to fuck off as nobody wants him, not one club on this planet wants our boy. There is no justification whatsoever that you can give me as to why he played yesterday, 0. He will piss off, finally, in january...

How do they deserve it more ? I'm pretty sure the young guns work just as hard as them. And more then this, lets say ok, you don't start them...but to not sub them in? It makes no sense, why put Odegaard or Jesus on last night? I don't get it.

Even Pep gives youth more chances then Arteta, Klopp does it so much more. But its a thing that he will learn in time I think, like he did with rotating...a thing that cost us time after time before he figured it out, and now is much better at it.

Wenger would have played 8 youths and bitch slapped PSV last night.

Burnwinter

RocktheCasbah Wow.

You've got me in knots here trying to work out why you've tacked a Merry Christmas message onto the end of this post.

Jeebus. I put the "Merry Christmas" there because I wish you well, so for goodness' sake, please do skip any self-inflicted hernias. That's not gonna help you get through the egg nog.

RocktheCasbah

Big Willie You're right though, some people will will find ways to be upset wih Arteta no matter what he does. There are also some people who will find a way of justifying everything he does at any given moment.

As I said here

RocktheCasbah It leads me to think I probably trust Arteta in ways that you (the royal you) don't quite yet - and maybe never will.

I think that's the crux of it. It's not like it's anything new here, is it? That's fine, everyone sees their football differently. I'm just not sure Arteta doing what he did last night is worth the bandwidth we've given it. Whether you agree with his reasons or not, it doesn't make them less valid - it just means you don't agree with them.

I guess I just find it quite funny that we have a manager who has done so much to raise the standards at this club in a very short timespan (for a stark reminder of this check out the "highlights" of the 2018 League Cup final which Sky have been broadcasting recently) and Clarence seems to have taken a couple of teenagers not getting to play last night as some sort of slight on them and the Arsenal fanbase as a whole

RocktheCasbah

HomeSteak I mean I literally said in my post that I understood the disquiet about Cedric starting - I also explained why I thought he had. I'd love to know who should have started in place of Elneny, also.#

Wenger managed us out of the CL, so I'm not sure he's the paragon you would like him to be.

RocktheCasbah

Burnwinter in that case, obviously I misunderstood your intention. Just seemed a weird thing to say at the end of that post.

Clrnc

I don't even think anyone is particularly ""úpset"" though. It's just that this is so predictable and typical of Arteta.

I mean you can justify it, but don't try to make it like he has no choice etc. It has always been consistent with his preference, to play experience over youth. Other managers like what Homesteak mentioned blood alot of young players and wouldn't hesitate to throw them in, Arteta doesn't, so just don't pretend he does.

Coombs

Clrnc what if they just aren't that good? I mean, if they were truly knocking on the door, maybe they'd get more game time. We keep assuming selections are about age/experience or whatever, but maybe they aren't.

Also, our first team squad is very big. There are lots of players who aren't getting minutes on the regular who started yesterday. Why are professional players who train everyday with the first team a lower priority than some 16 year old prospect? Shouldn't they earn their minutes?

KingslandBarge

Definitely right to be suspicious of Arteta given his sparse track record, and how I've viewed him to establish relationships, trust and promote even the best of our youth like Saka, Martinelli, Smith-Rowe, Willock, and Saliba. Nketiah being an exception. However, agree with a lot of your points @RocktheCasbah. I have little to no complaints (ESR and Saliba aside) about the selections yesterday, and the selection rationale in isolation. I didn't want this side losing two on the trot, and I think the margins between a draw and a loss last night were fine enough to be influenced by youth selection. I wanted 6-7 players that typically occupy our bench to get match time. I didn't want those 6-7 players, or 2-3 1st XI players unnecessarily being run ragged generally if we were found to be green and overwhelmed in 1-2 areas of the pitch. Like I said, the overall pattern over 3+ years needs to be examined at some point but otherwise pretty odd level of spilt tears across socials.

Clrnc

Coombs what if they just aren't that good? I mean, if they were truly knocking on the door, maybe they'd get more game time. We keep assuming selections are about age/experience or whatever, but maybe they aren'

That can be true, but then again we will never know if don't throw them into dead rubbers. That exact same line of thinking was actually used previously when Saliba got banished into reserves for Mustafi 😆

"he must have looked absolutely crap in training, what a waste of 25m to sign a dud."

Burnwinter

RocktheCasbah It's Christmas, so the time honoured tradition of having vaguely pissed off conversations with those we love is in full force ... I assumed you were getting into the spirit yourself. I'm just Santa's little helper here ...

« Previous Page Next Page »