Brentford vs Arsenal. Saturday 17:30 UK time. : Page 14 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Brentford vs Arsenal. Saturday 17:30 UK time.

daredevil

As usual, the battle lines are drawn between those who see the negatives and those who see the positives. It's been like this ever since Arteta joined and it's the same people arguing for and against. CBA with that shit and I'll just rejoice that we go top of the table.

goon

flobaba

Out of interest, what do you put Madrid playing garbage football down to this season?

flobaba

goon I don't watch them. I don't know.

Meatwad

goon
no prolific goal scorer, whether from wide or up top. same as us really. bellingham popping up with goals should be a bonus not something you build around.

awooga83

RocktheCasbah

I personally think some of our performance last season was top of our level not so much about the manager just some players in top form and outperforming their level. This season and the horseshoe tactics is more reminiscent of the way we've generally played under Arteta. You can also see it in his recruitment strategy we've spent decent getting the back right but we have players like Eddie and reiss Nelson who busy aren't the level we need.

I don't expect us to match last season as I think we would inevitably drop from there because it was near the peak of our level for 2/3 of the season. I think we relied a little too much on Martinelli or Saka will just make it happen alone rather then creating game states to allow them to exploit.

Anyway as with everything is subjective, if we make this level of performance work and win the title there is nothing that I could say to refute that. I just think the level we have shown so far offensively probably sees us come short and it's been this way pretty much the whole season and it's cost us a few games, Fulham, Chelsea, Newcastle which is the fine margins that I think could see us lose out over the season.

Kel Varnsen

goon

Couldn't find open play xG from set time periods last season, but overall xG has been:
First 14 games last year: 2.11
Last 24 games last year: 1.96
First 13 games this year: 1.91

Biggest difference seems to be we're creating fewer chances (xG) from open play, and more from corners and penalties (ca. 30% more). Another interesting stat is that last year we had 15.6 shots per game. This year we've had 14.2 shots per game. Fits with the other stats and the "eye test". We're more hesitant and less decisive in the final third.

But fair. It is difficult to identify the why here. I think it is Arteta's fault. Either by design or as a byproduct of his neurotic "over coaching" as some said. Hope we improve, because these things are not permanent.

daredevil

Kel Varnsen

You don't think losing Partey and opponents adjusting their tactics to employing low blocks and doubling up on our wingers has anything to do with it?

Doc

For me it is just simple matter of the personnel. Our midfield balance is not right without Partey and we have had a striker in Jesus who has had a really stop start season or a not quite good enough Eddie. That's 2 players right down our spine who were massively influential in our attacking fluidity last season... Could Arteta commit a load more players forward to compensate, sure but why would we when it has got us to the top of the league..

There can be other reasons why it's not quite clicking going forward and maybe Arteta hasn't found the right blend of midfield to make it work when it has been staring him in the face (can't see it myself) but it's surprising and amusing hear that there is still this idea that Arteta intentionally doesn't want to play attacking.

flobaba

Doc the assertion is that he is obsessed with controlling the game, and it obviously has come at the cost of attacking output.

TambourineMan

Feels weird to support an Arsenal so good at the back but so bland going forward. Doesn't feel right but I don't care if it means we keep winning.

Burnwinter

Qwiss Saka and Ode are both way below their best but we still won, we had a very marginal VAR call against us, we are solid as fuck. I choose to believe we can only get better.

I think this is the realistic outlook. It's positive we are churning the points without everything that worked last season working. We now have more than one way to win.

I don't think we look like league winners so far, but looking like league winners got us nowhere last season. We're top of the table, which is impressive under the circumstances. It creates the possibility of a benefit if our right side starts working.

What annoys me is we spent a vast sum on midfielders and we're still waiting for Partey to come back in and supposedly save the day.

KingslandBarge

Burnwinter I don't think we look like league winners so far, but looking like league winners got us nowhere last season.

That defensive triangle is of Saliba, Gabriel and Rice is looking pretty characteristic of a champion though! Goals conceded, xGA is looking pretty top notch.

Burnwinter We now have more than one way to win.

Agree, think multiple approaches are in development, some effective application so far. It will be intriguing to see how the team applies tools at the business end of the cups and leagues.

Arteta has continued a good trend into this season in terms of defensive substitutions to secure a result. Effective offensive substitutions like Trossard at Goodison, Havertz at Gtech hopefully tempt him to explore how much more he can accomplish using the bench forwards.

Panda

KingslandBarge That defensive triangle is of Saliba, Gabriel and Rice is looking pretty characteristic of a champion though! Goals conceded, xGA is looking pretty top notch.

Physical specimen. Love them.

KingslandBarge

Watch the key moments from this game and 99% of them are game scenarios with 5-8 Brentford outfield players packed into their own box. I'd say the same for most game moments from 3/4ths of the opponents we've faced this season, and pretty much an opposition adjustment that for me has spread rapidly since Late Winter/Spring '23. Crossing and switching possession (horseshoe) are extremely logical approaches to combat that. A glut of corners is an unsurprising byproduct of that. Very much agree that we should still strive to i) play more progressive when we can before the opponent fully settles into shape, ii) to test subtle variations against a deep block and iii) to have another capable operator between the lines. However, think some perspectives on our team are a little harsh and unrealistic/unpragmatic.

flobaba

KingslandBarge I agree with the observations, however I would tend to think all the teams in or around the top 4 will face a low block in most of their games, and would need to figure out how to overcome it. City, Liverpool, Newcastle?, ourselves. In my opinion (eye test, haven't looked for supporting data), our football is the least appealing of all the top teams, and probably our xG for/big chances created is lowest.

We play like a Mourinho managed team back when he was a half decent manager. Arteta is doing similar things when it comes to man management (poor), resource management (a tad excessive, even though I don't really care about this), and choice of football style (focused primarily on defensive and midfield stability and a heavy reliance on brilliant wingers think Damien Duff/Joe Cole/Arjen Robben).

We are winning the tight games right now, but if we continue like this, the moment we hit a skid and are not able to score goals or win games and the boys begin to tire or lose confidence, then it's all going to come crashing down.

KingslandBarge

daredevil building on some chat earlier in the week particularly on corners (circa KingslandBarge ) some insight through a top-level PL vs CL comparison.
PL: 8.8 corners per game (1st) // 33.3 touches in pen box (2nd)
CL: 4.4 corners per game (21st) // 29.4 touches in pen box (5th)
credit: @afcjxmes

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert

Panda physical special men?

Coat?

KingslandBarge

flobaba Similar sentiments to goon's reply but fair concerns. I did find myself a little re-evaluative after watching Spurs yesterday. Bregrudingly, some great football on display from them. I'll lean into some of the reasons stated here for why the oomph may not be far off, within the pragmatic frameworks we have been pushed into. Did you watch City vs Liverpool by the way? Thought City were applying pretty much the same approach as we typically do.
Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert rowr

Panda

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert 🤣😭 Yes, please.

Sicario2 - Tier 1

flobaba

You are too negative

Qwiss

flobaba I think you're right about Arteta being a bit Mourinho-esque. We are trying to win the league though, you'll always be in a position where if you stop scoring it goes to shit, even more so now with City setting such a high standard.

The one thing I keep coming back to is that Odegaard is way off form. If he finds his game again the whole thing raises a couple of levels.

goon

flobaba

We’re nothing like a Mourinho, low block, counter attacking based team. We are much more like a Pep City side stylistically from a few years ago when they had Sane, Sterling, Silva etc. We are just much slower and more cumbersome about how we move the ball. For me that’s about being good. There’s no such tactic that says do the same things but slower so that you’re more predictable.

Martinelli and Saka are not used to being doubled up on, Saka said it himself. Ode isn’t used to trying to unlock against two banks of 5. It’s going to take some adaptation.

You’re right that our current open play xG isn’t really ideal for a title challenge, but we are only about half a goal off per game off from the ideal level. It won’t take a lot to remedy that given some of the other stats in our favour.

Meatwad

i always liked don simeone. i don't hate defensive coaches as long as you win. if arteta turns out like him in terms of results i will be happy.

flobaba

Do you have a rebuttal to the comments I made, or are you merely making a passing observation/judgement sir?

Sicario2 - Tier 1

flobaba

Your thought process is based on the worst case scenario hence my negativity comment. What if we use this defensive solidarity as a base and push on offensively? That is more likely to happen imo.

Remember the old saying, defences win you leagues. You can have an amazing attack and less than average defence and you will have issues as we found out last season and Liverpool in 2013/2014.

awooga83

Qwiss I'm slightly mixed with Odegaard. He has undoubted quality but still had too many games where he's a bit of a none presence and my niggling doubt about him and if he can reach that elite tier. He needs to be a little more consistent to elevate to that top level and we need that from him to win the big honours.

Similarly when we have Martinelli and Saka getting doubled up on that's when one of our other midfielders needs to step up if they overload one of those they try to drive into the gaps but we still try to force everything where our opponent expects us to. That's where I wish we were a bit more reactive in our attacking play.

DiabyKungFu

Qwiss The one thing I keep coming back to is that Odegaard is way off form.

I think a combination of this and a highly idealized perception of last season is really all there is to this discussion. We had 1.89 xG/90 last year and we have 1.74 xG/90 this year. This is a noticeable but really not cataclysmic shift here. I think this is fully explained by Jesus' availability and Odegaard just needing to play better. Non-shot xG models liked us a lot more than shot-based xG models last year too (i.e. we were very "control"-y and relatively not super "shoot"-y). There's not really any difference there.

goon

The Saka quotes I was referring to:

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