Can't argue with that, Don.
It's looming as one of the most locked-in subplots of this squad's medium term future—can Arteta's Arsenal graduate to the Champions League and make a success of it?
If we are able to retain and placate the best of these second-stringers and bench players, and then manage to get more of them productive next season, I could respect the narrow focus on progress in results this season, because it's been so successful.
Agree - it's what has been playing in the back of my mind given Champions League has started to look likely. I do also wonder what the impact of our current approach to squad management will mean for our run-in at the end of the season (my concern being that we will fade away).
As an aside, it's very easy for us all to look externally for solutions to our problems but if we're not properly utilising the entirety of our squad, I think it solves as many problems as it creates.
Right At this stage you need to assume a major downturn in our form in the second half of the season to question the approach, which has been wildly successful.
There are some reasons to find that downturn plausible but it's not at all certain.
But we couldn't do things this way playing across PL and CL.
Don Pacifico Sure, but this is the reality of elite sports - you either sink, or swim. Now, it would be helpful if some of these guys were thrown an armband occasionally, but given how well the first XI have been performing, I find it difficult to see where the reserves could have been thrown in. And even where they have been, like Tomiyasu, he dropped a stinker last night.
That being said, I think Eddie Nketiah's form this season has been very interesting. I was quite vocal in the run up to the window, saying you don't give someone the #14 shirt and a new contract only to sign a new striker to play in front of him when we lose Jesus to injury. Some on Twitter disagreed with me on the basis of his sub appearances and form in the Europa League - and yet, here we are with 4 goals in the 4 games which have followed the resumption. I wouldn't go so far as to say we haven't missed a beat, but Eddie does present a different and very credible threat to our #9. I think Eddie presents both an argument that players need time and that you have to be ready to go when called upon.
On that note, whilst I felt quite optimistic about Sambi's chances in the first team this season, it seems incredibly clear that the gap between him and the majority of the guys he's competing with for first team football is vast, and probably too much to be bridged. At least in the near future.
I'm sure it didn't escape anyone's notice that our goals arrived within minutes of Xhaka replacing Sambi in addition to Zinchenko replacing Tierney - somebody else it feels as though the team has evolved beyond.
Champions League doesn't bring about as much rotation as the EL or FA Cup though. You just need to be able to rotate 2-3 players if need be, and the smaller scale rotation will lead to better performances. No one, including City, plays a second line-up.
The likes of Mudryk, ESR, Vieira, Tomi should enable us to do that without us dropping our performance levels too much. We just need one more high quality player in midfield and one more at centre back and we'll be set imo.
For example, this sort of side against Porto in the CL group stage or against Wolves should do just fine while resting Saka, Xhaka and White:
Ramsdale
Tomi - Saliba - Gabriel - Zinchenko
Odegaard - Partey - ESR
Marti - Jesus - Mudryk
goon Champions League doesn't bring about as much rotation as the EL or FA Cup though
Correct. The point is that you don't rotate the first XI for the Champions League. So adding 10 fixtures which need that first XI to the season makes it substantially harder to avoid rotation through the domestic cups.
goon We just need one more high quality player in midfield and one more at centre back
Not sure I agree we need the centre back. We've got White and Holding, and with Cedric to depart we need a new right back, I reckon. And I think with his current trajectory we might also be better off flipping Tierney for a new left back. A top, top defensive midfielder will be vital. Next season stands to be very difficult without one.
RocktheCasbah I'm sure it didn't escape anyone's notice that our goals arrived within minutes of Xhaka replacing Sambi in addition to Zinchenko replacing Tierney
Right, but they played no real part in the goals. Felt a bit like a desperate Oxford, who had been instructed to be frantically tight with their defensive marking, took a psychological blow from watching the cavalry run out to me.
RocktheCasbah I think Eddie presents both an argument that players need time and that you have to be ready to go when called upon.
One of the things happening with this landmark season for our club is a levelling up of "Arsenal standard", like it or not if we're league challengers we can't have scrubs. Once future Arsenal captain Tierney feels almost obsolete.
Thing is though, a manager won't take most of the blame when a player doesn't perform—"sink or swim", as you say—but top, top managers improve on these football aspects that aren't their sole responsibility.
I don't see it as Arteta's job to elevate Lokonga to the new "Arsenal standard", but it'll be much better for us if Arteta can find ways to encourage rather than exclude the majority of our up and comers.
Burnwinter some of those are not so urgent imo even if I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiments. I do think we need a centre back though because we lose too much with Holding in there. I don't really want to be moving our best right back into the middle too much.
As for the domestic cups, by having a group of 16-18 strong players you'll still be able to rest an entire XI and still have around half a dozen good players in there to support the more fringe elements of the squad.
No, that's true, they didn't, but within minutes, seconds even, of his arrival Xhaka was ferociously fighting for the ball by Oxford's corner flag. I think he either won a corner or a throw, it doesn't really matter. But in that one piece of play, he showed more than Sambi had all evening. And for me, it represented an aggressive action, the like of which you need to bring to games and we had failed to do this all game. We turned up the gas, basically.
Essentially I agree with what you're saying in respects of the "up and comers", but I think it's a lot easier said than done. History tells you that. I remember me and Sabret00the (remember him?) being massively frustrated that Jermaine Pennant wasn't given more of a chance during the Invincibles season. Were we right to be? We thought we were at the time, history suggests otherwise. Conversely, Gael Clichy took his chance to shine and acquitted himself incredibly well for a 17 year old kid, but he only got that chance because of what went down at Old Trafford.
What seems to be true of Arteta, a bit like Arsene, is that once you've lost his trust, it is incredibly difficult - perhaps impossible - to get it back. That seems a bit hardline to me, but again - it's elite sport, once lost, it should be difficult to win a manager's trust back. Particularly at a club like Arsenal. I guess it depends whether Arteta sees his fringe players as up and comers, or as with the Conservative, dead weight.
Conscious that I've started to waffle now, so I'll leave it there. 
I don't disagree with you, though I do disapprove slightly of Arteta publicly disparaging Lokonga as he did, that's a kind of spectacle Wenger avoided—effectively «il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un Amiral pour encourager les autres» …
Aside from Voltaire, I think the reason this turns into waffle is where we were: it's a grey area who takes charge of a young player's motivation. Any manager will play an unclear and contingent role. It's like when we were arguing over how much Arteta might have alienated Saliba.
As I said, we may need to focus more on native aggression in our recruiting if we want guys in their early 20s to get stuck in as Xhaka does. Martinelli has it, Saka to a lesser extent, Gabriel evidently … and Mudryk looks like he could be a zealot we can use.
Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert Seen Patino played at #6 this week and did great. He should come back this summer and take Sambis place. I had hopes for Lokonga but he doesn't look like he's improving for whatever reason, lack of football can't be helping but he isn't going to change that here. Time to move on. We'd have been a lot better off if we'd just kept Willock.
Qwiss I'm not so concerned by form. Hopefully Tomi will get back to his best, but we all know what he's capable of. With Holding and Tierney it's different, it's not their lack of form that concerns, it's the limitations to their game relative to what we're trying to do, particularly when it comes to progressing the ball.
I saw this earlier and it doesn't look good for Tierney, or maybe it just looks very good for Zinchenko?
One thing those stats show is there's no way we could play the way we do without proper footballers right across the back five. The days of specialist centre halves who can't pass and move are over.
Those stats don't look great for Tierney but I'd wonder how much of an impact playing a lot of his football in our backup team has.
It'll definitely have an impact but in Tierney's case we've seen him enough with the first team to know it's something he struggles with a little in general.
Burnwinter I remember a few debates on here about the emphasis on defenders and keepers who can pass out the back and what takes priority. Since then it's definitely swung closer to being of equal importance and maybe even in favour of distribution. We've got someone like Ramsdale who's value as someone keeping the ball out of the net has been questionable this season, but has been so good on the ball that no one ever thinks to raise it as an issue.
Put simply, the players topping our "passes per 90" are all defenders except for Partey. And everyone forward of Partey is accountable for generating and finishing chances, not recycling the ball. And of course White and Zinchenko also participate heavily in our build-up.
I bet we see very different numbers if we go back prior to the squad overturn of the summer before last.
Burnwinter central defenders of almost every team top their pass %, DMs too but its just the way that stat goes. Its just easier to pass the ball in your own half. Our central defender do it well compared to other defences though. I think they move it much more quickly than they used to and make less major errors on the ball compared to Luiz, Mustafi, etc
Spiers as Xhaka 
