Klaus wrote:

RC8 wrote:

Nah. As a Spaniard I know perfectly well the type of football Arteta is trying to play. We saw glimpses of it when he first took over and players were overexerting themselves for the new boss. It's a very physically and technically demanding style that requires lots of running, positional awareness, and players to pass the ball quickly and precisely over long distances to stretch out the opposition. It's also one of the most painful things to watch when players are not technically gifted (or confident) enough to carry it out.

Those are just a bunch of universal traits found everywhere, not a coherent philosophy. Stylistically Arteta has more in common with British shithouse kick-and-run managers who play it long and overload the wings for a cross than he has with any high-functioning football aesthete like Wenger or Guardiola. Which is precisely what you'd expect from someone who got his football schooling at Rangers and under Moyes rather than from Cruyff. I'm actually being unfair to Moyes here, who was positively brilliant for Everton and is now doing the same for West Ham too. He's performing on a level that is well beyond anything Arteta will ever achieve in his managerial career.

There is no intent to build something in the attacking half, none. And it's not because we lack the players, it's because there's no emphasis on technical excellence or ability. Instead we negate it by never playing the ball around in those areas. Consider for a moment that we went into last season with Willian as our only attacking midfielder, and that was deemed acceptable by these clowns who are in charge. Wenger and Pep would have had multiple heart attacks.

Arteta just wants to be comfortable in the defence so he doesn't cede possession. It's consequently the only area we ever spend significant money in, and why we put Saka in the defence for half a season last year despite him being our best attacker by a country mile. Playing it out from the back has turned into playing it around at the back, which is just another safety measure. Keep the ball from the opponents. Rafa Benitez style. I guess it can be considered a Spanish football school in that sense, but not the one you're thinking of that puts high technical demands on the football.

He's basically Southgate-lite and like Southgate he will try to ride Saka to any semblance of success we achieve.

And I'd even give Southgate the benefit of the fact he has a tiny amount of time to work with his squad.

The whole squad revamp narrative seems to be a recent addition to find more time for Arteta. When we were appointing the last manager and it was should we go for a big name the argument was Arsenal don't have the money to overhaul the team like those managers would want that's why they've got to go this less known road.

Now Arteta needs the perfect players and needs nearly the whole team replaced. If that is where we are then get rid because he's never getting that at Arsenal

There comes a point where the tactics become too overbearing. I feel we have better players than our system shows by trying to be overly prescriptive with how we should play. We are trying to address the loss of confidence in our key players with a solution that doesn't fit.

I think we are not helping Arteta by keeping him on. I think he lacks humility and by allowing him to dictate the narrative that players are not good enough and backing him with every failure, it doesn't allow him to confront that he is genuinely a big part of the problem. It's the mentality that can make him a good captain, but not the right material for a manager.

No disrespect intended to anyone but I can't get on board with bringing AW back, as much of these issues started under him when he had total control of the football operations & his approach was no longer good enough. The problem was & still is the club has no idea about HOW to succeed & it's been part of our DNA long before even AW.

Gazza M wrote:

wheatbix is a bit houseboatey so this might just be him trolling for clicks, but this whole situation with the 2 of them stinks. I get they're problematic in terms of form, but they're still decent players, and we're not a club that can really afford to completely alienate so many experinced, highly paid players at once. more red flags on artetas man management

If there's anything our fraud manager would be doing right, it's alienating the two OAP forwards that completely drain our wagebill.

I can't fucking stand either of them as footballers.

awooga83 wrote:

The whole squad revamp narrative seems to be a recent addition to find more time for Arteta. When we were appointing the last manager and it was should we go for a big name the argument was Arsenal don't have the money to overhaul the team like those managers would want that's why they've got to go this less known road.

Now Arteta needs the perfect players and needs nearly the whole team replaced. If that is where we are then get rid because he's never getting that at Arsenal

The squad DOES need a major overhaul because the components do not work together let alone suit a cohesive style of play, and that remains true for any manager that is in place.

That said I find it hard to believe this wasn't discussed at the time of his appointment, and I get the impression Arteta is frustrated that the club has not embraced the reality/necessity.  At the same time I do not think we should be giving a rookie manager carte blanche to dictate his requirements to the level we have seen under Arteta.

I wanted Wenger out for quite a while, but just think he needed a break from us and us from him to reflect. One thing above all others he loves the club and would not be looking at us as a stepping stone.

He will never be a long term answer, but bringing him back in any capacity would allow us to utilise his strengths again and possibly encourage better players to join as his reputation even now will be more than Arteta will ever achieve. Hell, even Messi might have been tempted.

Gazza M wrote:

wheatbix is a bit houseboatey so this might just be him trolling for clicks, but this whole situation with the 2 of them stinks. I get they're problematic in terms of form, but they're still decent players, and we're not a club that can really afford to completely alienate so many experinced, highly paid players at once. more red flags on artetas man management

Big time. He's turned Auba from one of the best strikers in the league into a highly paid problem. Before Arteta came everyone loved Auba and raved about how good he was with the young players, how great he is to have around the training ground, etc now there seems to be a campaign from certain quarters to paint him as a bad guy, I don't buy it.

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert wrote:

Gazza M wrote:

wheatbix is a bit houseboatey so this might just be him trolling for clicks, but this whole situation with the 2 of them stinks. I get they're problematic in terms of form, but they're still decent players, and we're not a club that can really afford to completely alienate so many experinced, highly paid players at once. more red flags on artetas man management

If there's anything our fraud manager would be doing right, it's alienating the two OAP forwards that completely drain our wagebill.

I can't fucking stand either of them as footballers.

I'm not impressed with either of them at the moment, but you have to cut your cloth accordingly. poor use of the resources at hand doesn't help the situation. we'd have been better off if at least 1 of them were available against Brentford (even if the difference was marginal), as unpopular as it is to say

Anzac wrote:

awooga83 wrote:

The whole squad revamp narrative seems to be a recent addition to find more time for Arteta. When we were appointing the last manager and it was should we go for a big name the argument was Arsenal don't have the money to overhaul the team like those managers would want that's why they've got to go this less known road.

Now Arteta needs the perfect players and needs nearly the whole team replaced. If that is where we are then get rid because he's never getting that at Arsenal

The squad DOES need a major overhaul because the components do not work together let alone suit a cohesive style of play, and that remains true for any manager that is in place.

That said I find it hard to believe this wasn't discussed at the time of his appointment, and I get the impression Arteta is frustrated that the club has not embraced the reality/necessity.  At the same time I do not think we should be giving a rookie manager carte blanche to dictate his requirements to the level we have seen under Arteta.

I don't disagree. I more meant when we were looking at appointing a new manager the argument against the big names in the media was the board wouldn't be giving the money they would need to reform the squad so we went with Arteta.

If Arteta feels he needs that money then we may as well have gone with the biggest names from the start.

DK Gooner wrote:

I wanted Wenger out for quite a while, but just think he needed a break from us and us from him to reflect. One thing above all others he loves the club and would not be looking at us as a stepping stone.

He will never be a long term answer, but bringing him back in any capacity would allow us to utilise his strengths again and possibly encourage better players to join as his reputation even now will be more than Arteta will ever achieve. Hell, even Messi might have been tempted.

TBH I doubt he'd come back if asked, and certainly not for the owners that he feels betrayed by when he departed.  I'd not be surprised if he doesn't see this as being the same club he joined over 20 years ago.

We're not even the same club he left 3 years ago.

well he wasn't close to being the manager he was 20 years ago either. just because we hired an inexperienced coach in hopes of hitting the lotto doesn't mean wenger getting the boot wasn't the right decision. the thing they missed while trying to gamble on discovering their own pep by hiring pep's practice cones handler is that barcelona let pep takeover a great team and a golden generation of talent. imagine them not having a great team and just giving him a huge budget to buy players with his horrible transfer history.

Anzac wrote:

DK Gooner wrote:

I wanted Wenger out for quite a while, but just think he needed a break from us and us from him to reflect. One thing above all others he loves the club and would not be looking at us as a stepping stone.

He will never be a long term answer, but bringing him back in any capacity would allow us to utilise his strengths again and possibly encourage better players to join as his reputation even now will be more than Arteta will ever achieve. Hell, even Messi might have been tempted.

TBH I doubt he'd come back if asked, and certainly not for the owners that he feels betrayed by when he departed.  I'd not be surprised if he doesn't see this as being the same club he joined over 20 years ago.

I think he would, but he would dictate to them the terms of his role and how it would operate. Pressure is of a different type compared to his last few seasons where we were trying to prevent a fall which has already happened. Now the the challenge is to move up and I think that is one he can accept. Also the fact Gazidis is gone helps massively.

awooga83 wrote:

Anzac wrote:

The squad DOES need a major overhaul because the components do not work together let alone suit a cohesive style of play, and that remains true for any manager that is in place.

That said I find it hard to believe this wasn't discussed at the time of his appointment, and I get the impression Arteta is frustrated that the club has not embraced the reality/necessity.  At the same time I do not think we should be giving a rookie manager carte blanche to dictate his requirements to the level we have seen under Arteta.

I don't disagree. I more meant when we were looking at appointing a new manager the argument against the big names in the media was the board wouldn't be giving the money they would need to reform the squad so we went with Arteta.

If Arteta feels he needs that money then we may as well have gone with the biggest names from the start.

Alternatively if the club wasn't going to provide the level of funds to rebuild as required, then they should have gone with more of 'a known thing' such as Potter even.  At the very least once we started allowed the departures of the likes of Rambo, Mkhi and Iwobi then the resulting squad was never going to be able to play at a technical level required by 'Arteta ball'.
It appears to me that we are stuck in 'no man's land' and neither the club nor Arteta seem to be on the same page so far as their expectations for what was required and the time frame involved.  

Meatwad wrote:

well he wasn't close to being the manager he was 20 years ago either. just because we hired an inexperienced coach in hopes of hitting the lotto doesn't mean wenger getting the boot wasn't the right decision. the thing they missed while trying to gamble on discovering their own pep by hiring pep's practice cones handler is that barcelona let pep takeover a great team and a golden generation of talent. imagine them not having a great team and just giving him a huge budget to buy players with his horrible transfer history.

Additionally he had already coached & managed most of the talent with Barca B, so he was in a situation it was probably harder to fail than to succeed.

DK Gooner wrote:

Anzac wrote:

TBH I doubt he'd come back if asked, and certainly not for the owners that he feels betrayed by when he departed.  I'd not be surprised if he doesn't see this as being the same club he joined over 20 years ago.

I think he would, but he would dictate to them the terms of his role and how it would operate. Pressure is of a different type compared to his last few seasons where we were trying to prevent a fall which has already happened. Now the the challenge is to move up and I think that is one he can accept. Also the fact Gazidis is gone helps massively.

He has admitted he stayed on to prove his critics wrong.  As such I don't think he would be willing to compromise his ethics or philosophy to help/save a club and ownership he feels betrayed by.  IF he did he'd more likely want total control again, in which case we'd be back where we started.
TBH if we did this I'd have less respect for both parties involved.

Everything points to poor management

GooneriC wrote:

Everything points to poor management

At both team and club levels.