We look worse now than we did under Arteta in his first 6 months, which is probably the most damning this out of everything. Other than ESR and Saka there’s no joy or enthusiasm in our play on the ball and zero aggression off it. The only identifiable pattern to our play is working the ball out to Tierney.

And it’s all so predictable too. We are either trying to bring Tierney into play on the left or Pepe on the right. No subtlety or subterfuge. The opponents know what to expect, and how to neutralize either option - bodies around Pepe and encourage him to run down a dead end, or let Tierney cross and have men positioned properly in the box to clear.

RC8 wrote:

Klaus wrote:

I think it's the fact that no one is acting shocked (indeed, that most could see this coming) that is so damning. We've spent so much money and time on this midtable team, and the most obvious template is not Manchester City; it's very clearly David Moyes's Everton. Which makes perfect sense when you think about it.

Nah. As a Spaniard I know perfectly well the type of football Arteta is trying to play. We saw glimpses of it when he first took over and players were overexerting themselves for the new boss. It's a very physically and technically demanding style that requires lots of running, positional awareness, and players to pass the ball quickly and precisely over long distances to stretch out the opposition. It's also one of the most painful things to watch when players are not technically gifted (or confident) enough to carry it out.

Arsenal seems to have been the wrong career move for Arteta. He was better off waiting it out at City to see if he'd be given a chance with a super squad. He might have had luck, then... but with this Arsenal squad I doubt even peak Wenger could get us into 4th without some substantial luck along the way.

We were playing on the counter-attack for the cup win and good run in the League at that time so I don't agree we saw the football you're saying Arteta wants to play at the start. I think he compromised back then, the counter-attack was by design.

I do agree with you that Arteta is trying to build a team that controls possession and territory - the much vaunted tiki-taka - rather than trying to stay organised behind the ball and counter-attack, which is the much easier way to set up a team. Arteta is stubbornly trying to play in a way that requires really intelligent and technically gifted players to execute. And I agree it's painful to watch and why we often look so limp and threaten the goal so rarely; there is no drive to play direct and toward goal, that's not the idea. If we are deep in the pitch with a chance to counter-attack it's not by design, and the players are coached to revert to the gameplan and execute set patterns where the aim is to create overloads in dangerous areas.

That's not to say that playing forward isn't an option, but we don't have midfielders that have a nose for when to slow the game down and work the patterns that create overloads and also when to play forward quickly because there's space to exploit and that's the right play. Well, we have one but he's always injured.

If we're going to persist with Arteta and if Arteta is going to persist in trying to play in a very demanding way then we've got to get attackers that can play and find space in small spaces, and creators that can get them the ball quickly and pick out their runs. Aubameyang, Pépé and Lacazette are not going to work in this set-up. Pépé would have taken Arsenal to the cleaners yesterday if he were playing on Brentford's right wing. Their gameplan was to sit deep, stay compact, hit Toney or space as quickly as possible - Pépé would have done terrible things. He's not a bad player, neither, obviously, is Aubameyang, but they're not suited to the way Arteta is trying to get us to play (Lacazette is just trash).

Maybe we should change the manager and get in a coach that can get the best out of the expensive players we have? I don't know. I think if Arteta can get the team to where he wants I'd be all for it, because I think it's the best way to play football. But time is fast running out and he has to find a way to get the players that don't work out and the players he needs in. Pandemic or not, he's got to be completely ruthless and demand the club make the changes or he's done here. I really hope that's why Lacazette and Aubameyang were not in the squad last night.

the problem he's completely lost the trust to gut this squad further and greenlight any more key signings. we've seen enough of what ruthless looks like under arteta, and we can't afford it any more

RC8 wrote:

Klaus wrote:

I think it's the fact that no one is acting shocked (indeed, that most could see this coming) that is so damning. We've spent so much money and time on this midtable team, and the most obvious template is not Manchester City; it's very clearly David Moyes's Everton. Which makes perfect sense when you think about it.

Nah. As a Spaniard I know perfectly well the type of football Arteta is trying to play. We saw glimpses of it when he first took over and players were overexerting themselves for the new boss. It's a very physically and technically demanding style that requires lots of running, positional awareness, and players to pass the ball quickly and precisely over long distances to stretch out the opposition. It's also one of the most painful things to watch when players are not technically gifted (or confident) enough to carry it out.

Arsenal seems to have been the wrong career move for Arteta. He was better off waiting it out at City to see if he'd be given a chance with a super squad. He might have had luck, then... but with this Arsenal squad I doubt even peak Wenger could get us into 4th without some substantial luck along the way.

So it's not Arteta who's too shit for Arsenal, Arsenal are too shit for Arteta?

I'll guarantee you this clown will never in his life see another top job.

Arsenal boss Mikel Arteta to BBC Sport: "I’m disappointed. We started the season against a good opponent. I don’t think we deserved anything different. They scored from a long throw-in and we didn’t have enough presence in the box."

Should Brentford's second have been disallowed for a foul on Bernd Leno? "It’s allowed in the Premier League. He cannot move. I can’t change it now.

"The first goal gave them some hope. We wanted to play better in the second half but we need many more shots on target, then we conceded on a set-piece.

"What I can control and help, I’ll put all my enthusiasm and work into that."

Arteta's time is all he has in his managerial CV the only thing he should be judged on and based on that I'm not even sure he's demonstrated any capacity for management.

We are past the time of projecting hopes on an unknown. He's like an even worse mourinho without the early success and any credible club would have sacked him by now.

People really bought into the hype with this one.

Gazza M wrote:

the problem he's completely lost the trust to gut this squad further and greenlight any more key signings. we've seen enough of what ruthless looks like under arteta, and we can't afford it any more

I don't agree. It's all about Arteta going whole hog for me. He can't do what he wants to do with many of the players he has - either they go or he goes.

If Leno, Chambers/Bellerin/Cedric, Xhaka, Aubameyang, Lacazette, and I'd even say, Pépé, are playing for us regularly this season, it's going to be bad. Each one of them that features just makes it harder to play the way he wants to play. It's now or never for him.

While I can agree with the idea that Arsenal do not have the technical players to play Arteta’s style, he has had enough time to try and get those players in, or change his style to match the players.

Two years on, and we do not look like a side that has any direction.

The shenanigans of this summer, with £50m on white, failed bids for Ramsdale, and trying to sell Xhaka then bringing him back and extending his contract, just reeks of a management team from Arteta upwards who do not know what they want to achieve, and how to achieve it.

Apart from Conte, who can we bring in?

ohboy!!! wrote:

Apart from Conte, who can we bring in?

Potter.

Ricky1985 wrote:

RC8 wrote:

Nah. As a Spaniard I know perfectly well the type of football Arteta is trying to play. We saw glimpses of it when he first took over and players were overexerting themselves for the new boss. It's a very physically and technically demanding style that requires lots of running, positional awareness, and players to pass the ball quickly and precisely over long distances to stretch out the opposition. It's also one of the most painful things to watch when players are not technically gifted (or confident) enough to carry it out.

Arsenal seems to have been the wrong career move for Arteta. He was better off waiting it out at City to see if he'd be given a chance with a super squad. He might have had luck, then... but with this Arsenal squad I doubt even peak Wenger could get us into 4th without some substantial luck along the way.

We were playing on the counter-attack for the cup win and good run in the League at that time so I don't agree we saw the football you're saying Arteta wants to play at the start. I think he compromised back then, the counter-attack was by design.

I do agree with you that Arteta is trying to build a team that controls possession and territory - the much vaunted tiki-taka - rather than trying to stay organised behind the ball and counter-attack, which is the much easier way to set up a team. Arteta is stubbornly trying to play in a way that requires really intelligent and technically gifted players to execute. And I agree it's painful to watch and why we often look so limp and threaten the goal so rarely; there is no drive to play direct and toward goal, that's not the idea. If we are deep in the pitch with a chance to counter-attack it's not by design, and the players are coached to revert to the gameplan and execute set patterns where the aim is to create overloads in dangerous areas.

That's not to say that playing forward isn't an option, but we don't have midfielders that have a nose for when to slow the game down and work the patterns that create overloads and also when to play forward quickly because there's space to exploit and that's the right play. Well, we have one but he's always injured.

If we're going to persist with Arteta and if Arteta is going to persist in trying to play in a very demanding way then we've got to get attackers that can play and find space in small spaces, and creators that can get them the ball quickly and pick out their runs. Aubameyang, Pépé and Lacazette are not going to work in this set-up. Pépé would have taken Arsenal to the cleaners yesterday if he were playing on Brentford's right wing. Their gameplan was to sit deep, stay compact, hit Toney or space as quickly as possible - Pépé would have done terrible things. He's not a bad player, neither, obviously is Aubameyang, but they're not suited to the way Arteta is trying to get us to play (Lacazette is just trash).

Maybe we should change the manager and get in a coach that can get the best out of the expensive players we have? I don't know. I think if Arteta can get the team to where he wants I'd be all for it, because I think it's the best way to play football. But time is fast running out and he has to find a way to get the players that don't work out and the players he needs in. Pandemic or not, he's got to be completely ruthless and demand the club make the changes or he's done here. I really hope that's why Lacazette and Aubameyang were not in the squad last night.

IMO Arteta is failing in much the same way Emery did before him, in that they each want to play in a style that is beyond the capabilities of these players.  With Emery it was about tactical flexibility & adaptability, and with Arteta it's more about technical ability.  The irony of it is that neither would have been any issue under a peak AW squad, but those days had gone before AW's departure.

I honestly would bring even Wenger back. There are no excuses left. If Arteta needed a complete overhaul of the first XI to suit his coaching style then he wasn't the right man ever. No manager gets that. His versatility and disciplinarian approach looked encouraging in his first 6 months but the more we play it seems like that FA Cup run was despite the manager and not because of him and the stern methods don't discipline, they possibly alienate.

Ricky1985 wrote:

Gazza M wrote:

the problem he's completely lost the trust to gut this squad further and greenlight any more key signings. we've seen enough of what ruthless looks like under arteta, and we can't afford it any more

I don't agree. It's all about Arteta going whole hog for me. He can't do what he wants to do with many of the players he has - either they go or he goes.

If Leno, Chambers/Bellerin/Cedric, Xhaka, Aubameyang, Lacazette, and I'd even say, Pépé, are playing for us regularly this season, it's going to be bad. Each one of them that features just makes it harder to play the way he wants to play. It's now or never for him.

why on earth would we go all in on him based on what he's shown so far? how can every experienced player be turning in career low performances at the same time, and the efficient response is to gut the entire team and hand the keys over to an incompetent coach with no track record? what you're suggesting would be disastrous, and rarely ever happens at top clubs

Qwiss! wrote:

ohboy!!! wrote:

Apart from Conte, who can we bring in?

Potter.

favre, Zidane, Enrique, try and tempt ten hag from ajax

RC8 wrote:

Klaus wrote:

I think it's the fact that no one is acting shocked (indeed, that most could see this coming) that is so damning. We've spent so much money and time on this midtable team, and the most obvious template is not Manchester City; it's very clearly David Moyes's Everton. Which makes perfect sense when you think about it.

Nah. As a Spaniard I know perfectly well the type of football Arteta is trying to play. We saw glimpses of it when he first took over and players were overexerting themselves for the new boss. It's a very physically and technically demanding style that requires lots of running, positional awareness, and players to pass the ball quickly and precisely over long distances to stretch out the opposition. It's also one of the most painful things to watch when players are not technically gifted (or confident) enough to carry it out.

Those are just a bunch of universal traits found everywhere, not a coherent philosophy. Stylistically Arteta has more in common with British shithouse kick-and-run managers who play it long and overload the wings for a cross than he has with any high-functioning football aesthete like Wenger or Guardiola. Which is precisely what you'd expect from someone who got his football schooling at Rangers and under Moyes rather than from Cruyff. I'm actually being unfair to Moyes here, who was positively brilliant for Everton and is now doing the same for West Ham too. He's performing on a level that is well beyond anything Arteta will ever achieve in his managerial career.

There is no intent to build something in the attacking half, none. And it's not because we lack the players, it's because there's no emphasis on technical excellence or ability. Instead we negate it by never playing the ball around in those areas. Consider for a moment that we went into last season with Willian as our only attacking midfielder, and that was deemed acceptable by these clowns who are in charge. Wenger and Pep would have had multiple heart attacks.

Arteta just wants to be comfortable in the defence so he doesn't cede possession. It's consequently the only area we ever spend significant money in, and why we put Saka in the defence for half a season last year despite him being our best attacker by a country mile. Playing it out from the back has turned into playing it around at the back, which is just another safety measure. Keep the ball from the opponents. Rafa Benitez style. I guess it can be considered a Spanish football school in that sense, but not the one you're thinking of that puts high technical demands on the football.

wheatbix is a bit houseboatey so this might just be him trolling for clicks, but this whole situation with the 2 of them stinks. I get they're problematic in terms of form, but they're still decent players, and we're not a club that can really afford to completely alienate so many experinced, highly paid players at once. more red flags on artetas man management

Rohit wrote:

I honestly would bring even Wenger back. There are no excuses left. If Arteta needed a complete overhaul of the first XI to suit his coaching style then he wasn't the right man ever. No manager gets that. His versatility and disciplinarian approach looked encouraging in his first 6 months but the more we play it seems like that FA Cup run was despite the manager and not because of him and the stern methods don't discipline, they possibly alienate.

That's spot on. People who keep saying our squad is shit we need a complete revamp is missing the point, Arteta is the bigger mistake than that.

I will never take Favre though he's a complete waste of time. Zidane and Conte will never come to us, we are too shit for them. I wonder if Bielsa is available though, great with young players too

Ricky1985 wrote:

RC8 wrote:

Nah. As a Spaniard I know perfectly well the type of football Arteta is trying to play. We saw glimpses of it when he first took over and players were overexerting themselves for the new boss. It's a very physically and technically demanding style that requires lots of running, positional awareness, and players to pass the ball quickly and precisely over long distances to stretch out the opposition. It's also one of the most painful things to watch when players are not technically gifted (or confident) enough to carry it out.

Arsenal seems to have been the wrong career move for Arteta. He was better off waiting it out at City to see if he'd be given a chance with a super squad. He might have had luck, then... but with this Arsenal squad I doubt even peak Wenger could get us into 4th without some substantial luck along the way.

We were playing on the counter-attack for the cup win and good run in the League at that time so I don't agree we saw the football you're saying Arteta wants to play at the start. I think he compromised back then, the counter-attack was by design.

I do agree with you that Arteta is trying to build a team that controls possession and territory - the much vaunted tiki-taka - rather than trying to stay organised behind the ball and counter-attack, which is the much easier way to set up a team. Arteta is stubbornly trying to play in a way that requires really intelligent and technically gifted players to execute. And I agree it's painful to watch and why we often look so limp and threaten the goal so rarely; there is no drive to play direct and toward goal, that's not the idea. If we are deep in the pitch with a chance to counter-attack it's not by design, and the players are coached to revert to the gameplan and execute set patterns where the aim is to create overloads in dangerous areas.

That's not to say that playing forward isn't an option, but we don't have midfielders that have a nose for when to slow the game down and work the patterns that create overloads and also when to play forward quickly because there's space to exploit and that's the right play. Well, we have one but he's always injured.

If we're going to persist with Arteta and if Arteta is going to persist in trying to play in a very demanding way then we've got to get attackers that can play and find space in small spaces, and creators that can get them the ball quickly and pick out their runs. Aubameyang, Pépé and Lacazette are not going to work in this set-up. Pépé would have taken Arsenal to the cleaners yesterday if he were playing on Brentford's right wing. Their gameplan was to sit deep, stay compact, hit Toney or space as quickly as possible - Pépé would have done terrible things. He's not a bad player, neither, obviously, is Aubameyang, but they're not suited to the way Arteta is trying to get us to play (Lacazette is just trash).

Maybe we should change the manager and get in a coach that can get the best out of the expensive players we have? I don't know. I think if Arteta can get the team to where he wants I'd be all for it, because I think it's the best way to play football. But time is fast running out and he has to find a way to get the players that don't work out and the players he needs in. Pandemic or not, he's got to be completely ruthless and demand the club make the changes or he's done here. I really hope that's why Lacazette and Aubameyang were not in the squad last night.

He doesn't even ask them to play in a demanding way. He is just a crap coach who can't get his ideas across or has terrible ideas.