speedy wrote:

Shady wrote:

This is all just conjecture, proved by the fact that you just say "probably" for both players without actually backing up with any evidence how not having fans has helped them. 

We don't have proof of anything just evidence  of things. And that's true of every comment on this forum. We have evidance players form is effected by confidence from previous and current players. Weve seen laca with and without confidence and thd difference is huge. 

We know endless abusing someone who needs confide ce (you also admitted it was important) is likely to be negative for their preformance. We've  seen endless examples of that. 

Weve seen ramsey gerviho bellerin xhaka getting loads of abuse. To the point the manager admitted he couldn't play some of them. Despite them being super hard working and some of our better players. By getting to this point you had to admit its been damaging. So we got the 5 or 6 shifts in what you were getting at the final was to current  ratherthan  recent. I'm talking past present and future thd fans have the ability to help the team or be super childish and lash out despite the fact they're just going to make things worse for themselves. 

Youve skirted around almost every question I've posed because you know your argument doesn't hold up with honestly its just coveniant to lash out at players and pretend it has no effect. Youve also admittied sports stars are hugely effected by confidence. You claimed these star arent effect by the crouds despite every player and manger telling you different. Their 10,000's of interview were llayers talk about the crowd helping or how hard it is to win at liverpool and not be intimidated Etc. So we know the croud has an effect.

From my perspective I've been quite clear and I think I've tackled your points. Your last point is fans don't have an effect you'd need a really strong case because I goes against all the evidence I've seen im my life in changing rooms. Worrkkng in sports and being in the dug out and watching from the stands. And all thr mates I have who are plahers. And every player or manager interview since coverage began. Thats not a debate wortb having. Unless you can come up with something convincing as to why all these people are lying when they say the support matters as it lifts their confidence? 

Otherwise this one is put to bed for me. 

Yeah I'm not carrying on. You can't make your mind up here. You start by saying our players are better off without the fans, then relay historical evidence to back it up.

I have said that fans can affect players, but the current fans are not responsible for the poor performances of our current players. You have not addressed this point. You keep saying that I am not answering your points, but you are unwilling to focus on this point, which is the very point you yourself started with. Everytime I bring it back to the original point you start waffling about fans and players' confidence in general.

You started off by criticising our fans for their inpact this season, and several hours later have not been able to justify it. End of.

Xhaka is a current player and we discussed how abuse is likely to have effected him and not having to worry about that abuse is likely to be helping him.

Yes and I said Xhaka's form improved when Arteta came in, not when the fans were banned from attending. Having the right manager was the key for him not the fans.

Xhaka was no worse after the abuse. Think he's a bad example.

Clrnc wrote:

goon wrote:

No one has said all negative feedback is out of order though, that's frankly impossible unless you have robots to fill the stadium. The debate is about whether or not fans should have to try  and regulate their behavior and be more supportive, and the Xhaka incident is just a very obvious example of a circumstance where they should have. 

Boos after an embarrising loss at home or a bad run of results after the final whistle? Absolutely fine as far as i'm concerned. Ironic cheers during subs or whatever, or groans after a misplaced pass? Forget what the club says, as a fan I personally think we can do better, and the team would benefit.

Xhaka didn't help himself though? There were some whistles here and there because he was walking so slowly while we are chasing a game. It only become full blown after his antics.

There were ironic cheers when his number came up though and it all spiralled from there.

Another point is Arsenal fans get super nervous, that passes on to the players, especially at the emirates. And when we need a goal then the fans can push the team.

All in all, Arsenal fans have created a toxic atmosphere, especially after Wenger refused to step down IMO.

Ray wrote:

Another point is Arsenal fans get super nervous, that passes on to the players, especially at the emirates. And when we need a goal then the fans can push the team.

All in all, Arsenal fans have created a toxic atmosphere, especially after Wenger refused to step down IMO.

I don’t think Arsenal fans have “created” a toxic atmosphere.

The fans are human, and are showing frustration after a period of 5 nils, 6-1’s, 8-2, and 6 nil.

Seeing poor player after poor player walking through the door.

The fans were neutral after Emery took over, which is completely normal. Normally a fan base only gets super excited when they get the consensus number one pick for the job. Look at how untied fans treated Moyes, Van gaal. Those super fan scousers sure treated Roy Hodgson with tremendous support

I fully agree that the AFTV lot are ridiculous, got no time for them. Our problems are for us as fans and a club to deal with. Not for public consumption for all of our rivals to see.

When have been completely drained following this club over the last few years, it is for the club to make proper decisions to win us back. Any big club who has been through what we have, would be 100x times worse.

This ridiculous “superfan” notion of never booing is completely detached from reality.

Shady wrote:

Yes and I said Xhaka's form improved when Arteta came in, not when the fans were banned from attending. Having the right manager was the key for him  not the fans.

He didn't just have abuse that day.

speedy wrote:

Burnwinter wrote:

They are professional footballers. Accepting criticism goes with the territory, actual abuse is a shame but also to be expected if your performances are abominable.

I find it extremely hard to feel sorry for these guys who earn in a week what the average person earns in a year.

Don't like the heat? Work a couple of years and retire.

The financial side of it isn't the point I was making although its interesting to think there's  sum of money that if you earn past that particular point its OK to abuse you to menal health issues. But let's stick a pin in that point.

The point is that in real terms, once they arrive at a club like Arsenal, professional footballers have far more freedom and agency than ordinary people, or even privileged workers like myself. They've chosen a path that requires immense dedication, and carries considerable pressures, and comes with huge rewards.

I personally think that failing in front of 60,000 fans who are biting their lips to avoid hurting your feelings would carry its own weight. Football is a very public, very arbitrary activity where success is defined by the millisecond and millimetre. The "abuse" from fans is the dual of our rather arbitrary cathexis, which is what in turn defines our willingness to give up our time and money to the spectacle. For some fans, the abuse may be the product itself: a distasteful situation, but understandable given the constrained working lives to which ordinary people return when they're not briefly liberated by the myriad psychological transferences of football. If being a footballer is a Faustian bargain, it's not a particularly difficult one for most, even the Denilsons. It's the men truly damaged by the experience, like Gascoigne or Maradona for whom I reserve my sympathy, and even then it seems clear their outcomes are bound to complex preexisting tendencies.

speedy wrote:

But the point I was making was abusing your own team is just poor impulse control like a small child. As it makes the player worse the team performance worse and the results you dont like worse. Deep down they know its damaging for thr team but abusing the player lets them vent so they feel good for a few seconds.

I think it's preposterous, for the reasons given above, to expect or indeed desire the experience of being a football fan to be one characterised by the duty of work, its own kind of work. That's not how this arrangement should be and I wouldn't want it if it were, I have work that pays me. I know you've worked in sports support teams (or similar) and I think that mentality would make sense from the vantage point of a support worker. It doesn't from mine.

goon wrote:

Clrnc wrote:

Xhaka didn't help himself though? There were some whistles here and there because he was walking so slowly while we are chasing a game. It only become full blown after his antics.

There were ironic cheers when his number came up though and it all spiralled from there.

Exactly. Boo the whole team to your heart's content but dont single players out ffs it's not that difficult to understand. Dressing one bloke down in particular doesn't help anyone

goon wrote:

Clrnc wrote:

Xhaka didn't help himself though? There were some whistles here and there because he was walking so slowly while we are chasing a game. It only become full blown after his antics.

There were ironic cheers when his number came up though and it all spiralled from there.

I think it spiralled when he took off the arm band and it went to ground, and he seemed to hesitate as if going to pick it up and then decided not to and commenced his slow stroll.

speedy wrote:

Shady wrote:

Yes and I said Xhaka's form improved when Arteta came in, not when the fans were banned from attending. Having the right manager was the key for him  not the fans.

He didn't just have abuse that day.

IIRC there is no evidence that any of the extreme abuse and threats came from AFC supporters, as opposed to general online trolls jumping on a convenient bandwagon/platform.

jones wrote:

goon wrote:

There were ironic cheers when his number came up though and it all spiralled from there.

Exactly. Boo the whole team to your heart's content but dont single players out ffs it's not that difficult to understand. Dressing one bloke down in particular doesn't help anyone

Yea, and hes been getting shit from fans for years. He snapped that day but ripping xhaka has been going a  long time. 

Burnwinter wrote:

speedy wrote:

The financial side of it isn't the point I was making although its interesting to think there's  sum of money that if you earn past that particular point its OK to abuse you to menal health 

speedy wrote:

But the point I was making was abusing your own team is just poor impulse control like a small child. As it makes the player worse the team performance worse and the results you dont like worse. Deep down they know its damaging for thr team but abusing the player lets them vent so they feel good for a few seconds.

I think it's preposterous, for the reasons given above, to expect or indeed desire the experience of being a football fan to be one characterised by the duty of work, its own kind of work. That's not how this arrangement should be and I wouldn't want it if it were, I have work that pays me. I know you've worked in sports support teams (or similar) and I think that mentality would make sense from the vantage point of a support worker. It doesn't from mine.

I go to rugby matches aswell as football. And the rugby crowd doesn't  shread their own players like our fans rip xhaka. They accept some players are better than other yoire always going to have players with things to work on and if thr don't improve its up to the manager to sell them.

Heineken cup is tbd champions league of rugby and if you go the pub after tbr game you can drink with the opposition fans and thr ref often pops in for a few pints after the game. And nobody abuses him. 

How do you think that's work? Supporting you team and being a reasonable human. 

He was getting hammered on social media leading up to the incident as well. He had a shit game, and things escalated when fans singled him out in the stadium

Just so im clear, we're not saying xhakas form became poor because of fan abuse right? Because he was well supported for a good stretch when he first joined, then people started getting on his back for poor performances from his 2nd year onwards. Its moreso, if a player is already struggling, singling them out for more abuse exacerbates things

I don't think AW did any of them any favors by either trying to wrap them in cotton wool or with his selections etc.

speedy wrote:

How do you think that's work? Supporting you team and being a reasonable human. 

Just to be clear, I don't think it's great form to be booing one player brutally. I just think that at some point you've got to accept that football is about getting very emotionally invested in something that's pretty arbitrary, and the sport only exists and rewards players the way it does because of that emotional investment. Everyone involved signs up to that on some level, and the rewards of doing so for players are massive.

Rugby fans probably are more polite than football fans. The two codes have a long history of association with particular social classes and behaviours … I know which I prefer!

ohboy!!! wrote:

Anzac wrote:

I like his recent comments about not wasting time with players you need to convince to sign,
and more so after these latest results and performances.
Sure we didn't dominate the ball or match stats, but we did where it counted.
If players cannot see the potential from those results then we're better without them.

In general I agree, but for me if it takes a bit of convincing to sign a top player, who you are sure will make a difference, then you do it. Not being in the CL will make some players pause, so if you need to arm twist, then that what we have to do.

Agreed, but I'd be thinking in terms of an elite level player such as the likes of Sanchez, Ozil or PEA when signed, whereas I'd consider Laca as being a top player when signed.

Burnwinter wrote:

speedy wrote:

How do you think that's work? Supporting you team and being a reasonable human. 

Just to be clear, I don't think it's great form to be booing one player brutally. I just think that at some point you've got to accept that football is about getting very emotionally invested in something that's pretty arbitrary, and the sport only exists and rewards players the way it does because of that emotional investment. Everyone involved signs up to that on some level, and the rewards of doing so for players are massive.

Rugby fans probably are more polite than football fans. The two codes have a long history of association with particular social classes and behaviours … I know which I prefer!

Agreed. Supporter passion cuts both ways. The darker side of fan behaviour is priced in. Doesnt make it morally right,  but nothing in life is. Fans love and hate equally hard, and that can explode in unhealthy ways

Things like the booing of xhaka and the wenger out banners should be taken in context as well. The former was in the midst of relegation form, and the latter was in a period when results were sliding and everyone at the club appeared ambivalent about the situation. 

The idea that arsenal fans are uniquely toxic is laughable as well. We're not flying white lives matter banners or taking up a vendetta of booing a player whose leg was broken by one of ours