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Our home record was better than our away record before lockdown wasn't it? That suggests to me our fans are not the problem.

Shady wrote:
speedy wrote:

By saying you dont want to admot to the effect size which id agree is hard to measure. Youre admitting it has a negative effect. Now we've something to build on. Your attempt to still justify the abuse you're saying thr players ability dictates there preformace. While 2 posts ago you admitted xhaka is playing much better now than he was previously. Which really goes against your most recent point that their ability dictates performance. 

You've came as far as to admit its damaging albeit not directly because you know it destroys your argument. Then we had that side track that goes against your point. But let's not get distracted by it. 

How important is confidence to a players performance? In your opinion based on all the football you've played and watched. 

There is a middle ground here. Just because you are at one extreme does not mean that I am going to go right to the other end because I disagree with you.

Xhaka is playing better and as I said that occured before lockdown. I would put that down to having a better manager, rather than blaming the fans. Mustafi has no fans booing him and yet still does the same dumb shit. These are the two players that you picked out and yet it is clear that it is not the fans that dictate their performances. 

 Players also have ceilings. You can clap them all you like but that isn't going to turn shit into gold, so blaming the fans for the shit performances is wrong, which is why I disagree with your stance.

Mustafi I've little time for he needs to move on. But the pressure undoubtedly gets to him. 

You've completely avoid my question, how importance is confidence to a player? Because you know its hugely important and you also know abuse will completely erode it especially if a player is going through a bit of a tough time preformance wise like all people do.  Cesc, ramsey, nasty, sanga, kos every top playered we've had in 15 has had bad spells its normal.

I'm not at an extreme though, I brought up the point its hard to measure the effect size but its undoubtedly negative and counter productive to anyone who wants to see arsenal do well. Its been pretty clear tbr mlre then fans have abused xhaka thd lower the low point is. And when the fans are reasonably supportive of him hes usually our best midfielder. When the team does poorly they take it out on him if it changes his 5/10 preforman e to a 3 or a 4 so just one or two points out of ten. Weve seen our team crashes. Hes a vital cog. Would you agree thr abuse when it's consistent could shift his preformance 1 or 2 out of ten?

@[deleted] "Suggests" being the key word. You can definitely not draw such a conclusion from our home form being better than our away form. I also disagree with the notion of "the problem" as if there is only one. Maybe we have tons of problems and the fans amount for 10% of them.

I do think that expensive ticket prices encourages "venting" though and that if supporters have a bad impact the club also needs to share the blame.

Qwiss! wrote:

Our home record was better than our away record before lockdown wasn't it? That suggests to me our fans are not the problem.

I don't think anyone thinks we have one single problem. The manager, players and fans can always do a little better. One way thd fans could do better would be to listen to the endless pleas from the ever changing hierarch at thr club that abusing players is really unhelpful. 

Things like AFTV create such a negative laughing stock around that club. Those guys are really damaging the brand for personal gain. And our fans love it almost as much as oppostion fans do.

speedy wrote:
Shady wrote:

There is a middle ground here. Just because you are at one extreme does not mean that I am going to go right to the other end because I disagree with you.

Xhaka is playing better and as I said that occured before lockdown. I would put that down to having a better manager, rather than blaming the fans. Mustafi has no fans booing him and yet still does the same dumb shit. These are the two players that you picked out and yet it is clear that it is not the fans that dictate their performances. 

 Players also have ceilings. You can clap them all you like but that isn't going to turn shit into gold, so blaming the fans for the shit performances is wrong, which is why I disagree with your stance.

Mustafi I've little time for he needs to move on. But the pressure undoubtedly gets to him. 

You've completely avoid my question, how importance is confidence to a player? Because you know its hugely important and you also know abuse will completely erode it especially if a player is going through a bit of a tough time preformance wise like all people do.  Cesc, ramsey, nasty, sanga, kos every top playered we've had in 15 has had bad spells its normal.

I'm not at an extreme though, I brought up the point its hard to measure the effect size but its undoubtedly negative and counter productive to anyone who wants to see arsenal do well. Its been pretty clear tbr mlre then fans have abused xhaka thd lower the low point is. And when the fans are reasonably supportive of him hes usually our best midfielder. When the team does poorly they take it out on him if it changes his 5/10 preforman e to a 3 or a 4 so just one or two points out of ten. Weve seen our team crashes. Hes a vital cog. Would you agree thr abuse when it's consistent could shift his preformance 1 or 2 out of ten?

I agree that confidence is important, I don't agree that our fans' behaviour affects our players as much as you say it does.

All fans cheers and boo and groan and clap. It doesn't just happen at Arsenal, we are much tamer compared to other clubs. I completely disagree with your conclusion that the likes of Xhaka has improved when the fans in the ground were nicer to him. 

Shady wrote:
speedy wrote:

Mustafi I've little time for he needs to move on. But the pressure undoubtedly gets to him. 

You've completely avoid my question, how importance is confidence to a player? Because you know its hugely important and you also know abuse will completely erode it especially if a player is going through a bit of a tough time preformance wise like all people do.  Cesc, ramsey, nasty, sanga, kos every top playered we've had in 15 has had bad spells its normal.

I'm not at an extreme though, I brought up the point its hard to measure the effect size but its undoubtedly negative and counter productive to anyone who wants to see arsenal do well. Its been pretty clear tbr mlre then fans have abused xhaka thd lower the low point is. And when the fans are reasonably supportive of him hes usually our best midfielder. When the team does poorly they take it out on him if it changes his 5/10 preforman e to a 3 or a 4 so just one or two points out of ten. Weve seen our team crashes. Hes a vital cog. Would you agree thr abuse when it's consistent could shift his preformance 1 or 2 out of ten?

I agree that confidence is important, I don't agree that our fans' behaviour affects our players as much as you say it does.

All fans cheers and boo and groan and clap. It doesn't just happen at Arsenal, we are much tamer compared to other clubs. I completely disagree with your conclusion that the likes of Xhaka has improved when the fans in the ground were nicer to him. 

You don't feel fans giving him shit while he's mega frustrated already for being in poor form could affect his confidence which you admit is important. 

Bearing in mind one recent example where rio was taking about the top strikers  hes played with after missing a chance like auba against City would have went quiet for a bit and maybe not made that run and definaty not attempted that difficult finish. I put it to you that youre vastly underrating how human these guys are. If something as simple as a striker missing  a chance really effects them. How can you think continually abusing someone wouldn't have an effect on them. 

speedy wrote:
Shady wrote:

I agree that confidence is important, I don't agree that our fans' behaviour affects our players as much as you say it does.

All fans cheers and boo and groan and clap. It doesn't just happen at Arsenal, we are much tamer compared to other clubs. I completely disagree with your conclusion that the likes of Xhaka has improved when the fans in the ground were nicer to him. 

You don't feel fans giving him shit while he's mega frustrated already for being in poor form could affect his confidence which you admit is important. 

Bearing in mind one recent example where rio was taking about the top strikers  hes played with after missing a chance like auba against City would have went quiet for a bit and maybe not made that run and definaty not attempted that difficult finish. I put it to you that youre vastly underrating how human these guys are. If something as simple as a striker missing  a chance really effects them. How can you think continually abusing someone wouldn't have an effect on them. 

I believe their own performance affects them more than what our fans do. If Xhaka keeps underhitting passes I think that would affect him more than the fans' response. These guys aren't stupid, they know fans are emotional and they are able to analyse their own performance. Your bit about Rio backs this up. The striker is affected by his own miss, not the fans' response to it. 

Now I'm not saying that fans have no effect on players whatsoever, but I am saying that our fans have not gone as far as to cause our shit performances this season, which was your initial point that I took issue with. Booing every touch for weeks on end would have an effect, sure. But our fans do not do that, not with Xhaka, Mustafi or anyone. 

I think being near the bottom of the table affected our players more than our fans telling them to "fuck off". 

Shady wrote:
speedy wrote:

You don't feel fans giving him shit while he's mega frustrated already for being in poor form could affect his confidence which you admit is important. 

Bearing in mind one recent example where rio was taking about the top strikers  hes played with after missing a chance like auba against City would have went quiet for a bit and maybe not made that run and definaty not attempted that difficult finish. I put it to you that youre vastly underrating how human these guys are. If something as simple as a striker missing  a chance really effects them. How can you think continually abusing someone wouldn't have an effect on them. 

I believe their own performance affects them more than what our fans do. If Xhaka keeps underhitting passes I think that would affect him more than the fans' response. These guys aren't stupid, they know fans are emotional and they are able to analyse their own performance. Your bit about Rio backs this up. The striker is affected by his own miss, not the fans' response to it. 

Now I'm not saying that fans have no effect on players whatsoever, but I am saying that our fans have not gone as far as to cause our shit performances this season, which was your initial point that I took issue with. Booing every touch for weeks on end would have an effect, sure. But our fans do not do that, not with Xhaka, Mustafi or anyone. 

I think being near the bottom of the table affected our players more than our fans telling them to "fuck off". 

There own performance effects them but kicking them when their down has a cementing effect. We saw previously some players couldn't play home games. So we know for certain it effects their preformance. How much is debatable. But at this level like i mentioned a drop of 1 or 2/10 is enough to have an effect. 

speedy wrote:
Shady wrote:

I believe their own performance affects them more than what our fans do. If Xhaka keeps underhitting passes I think that would affect him more than the fans' response. These guys aren't stupid, they know fans are emotional and they are able to analyse their own performance. Your bit about Rio backs this up. The striker is affected by his own miss, not the fans' response to it. 

Now I'm not saying that fans have no effect on players whatsoever, but I am saying that our fans have not gone as far as to cause our shit performances this season, which was your initial point that I took issue with. Booing every touch for weeks on end would have an effect, sure. But our fans do not do that, not with Xhaka, Mustafi or anyone. 

I think being near the bottom of the table affected our players more than our fans telling them to "fuck off". 

There own performance effects them but kicking them when their down has a cementing effect. We saw previously some players couldn't play home games. So we know for certain it effects their preformance. How much is debatable. But at this level like i mentioned a drop of 1 or 2/10 is enough to have an effect. 

Your original point was that "it really helps not having our fans there" as in present tense, yet you keep using historical examples?

I am talking about our squad right now and saying that it is not the fans' fault that this squad has played badly or lost confidence.

I would say Emery fucking up the team against Palace, us getting hammered by Wolves and Leicester (away from home), getting hammered by Chelsea in Baku (with almost no fans) is what derailed the morale of the squad,  not fans booing. Confidence has been lifted by Arteta coming in.

We were unbeaten in the league in 2020 before the lockdown and despite a few unlucky results, lots of us noticed the upturn in performances under Arteta, despite those horrible nasty fans.

I used holistical examples because its a far larger sample size. And current examples like xhaka and mustafi. Our fans are deeply suspicious of keepers and it's probably helped martinez settle aswell as I think everyone would agree hes never looked anywhere close to this good before.

Luiz probably found it easier to bounce back from that shocker in empty stadiums aswell.

speedy wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:

Our home record was better than our away record before lockdown wasn't it? That suggests to me our fans are not the problem.

I don't think anyone thinks we have one single problem. The manager, players and fans can always do a little better. One way thd fans could do better would be to listen to the endless pleas from the ever changing hierarch at thr club that abusing players is really unhelpful. 

Things like AFTV create such a negative laughing stock around that club. Those guys are really damaging the brand for personal gain. And our fans love it almost as much as oppostion fans do.

Thats just passing the buck from the hierarchy. They make promises of competing and when they fail to achieve their goals and promises they blame the fans. You'd have to be a total sucker to fall for such naked spin.

If Arsenal is a "brand" then its the job of the people who work for that brand to protect it not some lad with a youtube channel. If they are damaging Arsenals brand then its a shockingly weak brand to begin with.

All fans criticise their clubs when they are as bad as we have been. Thats just part of football, blaming fans for reacting negatively to shite we put up with is like blaming the birds for flying south in winter. The club failing is not the fault of the fans and I mean not even a little bit.

speedy wrote:

I used holistical examples because its a far larger sample size. And current examples like xhaka and mustafi. Our fans are deeply suspicious of keepers and it's probably helped martinez settle aswell as I think everyone would agree hes never looked anywhere close to this good before.

Luiz probably found it easier to bounce back from that shocker in empty stadiums aswell.

This is all just conjecture, proved by the fact that you just say "probably" for both players without actually backing up with any evidence how not having fans has helped them. 

Qwiss! wrote:

Thats just passing the buck from the hierarchy. They make promises of competing and when they fail to achieve their goals and promises they blame the fans. You'd have to be a total sucker to fall for such naked spin.

If Arsenal is a "brand" then its the job of the people who work for that brand to protect it not some lad with a youtube channel. If they are damaging Arsenals brand then its a shockingly weak brand to begin with.

All fans criticise their clubs when they are as bad as we have been. Thats just part of football, blaming fans for reacting negatively to shite we put up with is like blaming the birds for flying south in winter. The club failing is not the fault of the fans and I mean not even a little bit.

Didn't you blame the fans when they booed off Xhaka?

players who fold because fans are booing them will always fold under pressure. they are as useful as the number 9 on a microwave.

goon wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:

Thats just passing the buck from the hierarchy. They make promises of competing and when they fail to achieve their goals and promises they blame the fans. You'd have to be a total sucker to fall for such naked spin.

If Arsenal is a "brand" then its the job of the people who work for that brand to protect it not some lad with a youtube channel. If they are damaging Arsenals brand then its a shockingly weak brand to begin with.

All fans criticise their clubs when they are as bad as we have been. Thats just part of football, blaming fans for reacting negatively to shite we put up with is like blaming the birds for flying south in winter. The club failing is not the fault of the fans and I mean not even a little bit.

Didn't you blame the fans when they booed off Xhaka?

Thats a bit reductive. There is a difference between thinking someone didn't deserve to be booed off on a specific occasion and thinking all negative feedback from fans is out of order and a major reason for the clubs lack of success.

And Xhaka is now loved by our fans again. It's completely normal.

I don't think any big club fans will continuously encourage and chant their players name if they produce absolutely shit performances for an entire year consistently. It's just against group human nature

Qwiss! wrote:
goon wrote:

Didn't you blame the fans when they booed off Xhaka?

Thats a bit reductive. There is a difference between thinking someone didn't deserve to be booed off on a specific occasion and thinking all negative feedback from fans is out of order.

No one has said all negative feedback is out of order though, that's frankly impossible unless you have robots to fill the stadium. The debate is about whether or not fans should have to try  and regulate their behavior and be more supportive, and the Xhaka incident is just a very obvious example of a circumstance where they should have. 

Boos after an embarrising loss at home or a bad run of results after the final whistle? Absolutely fine as far as i'm concerned. Ironic cheers during subs or whatever, or groans after a misplaced pass? Forget what the club says, as a fan I personally think we can do better, and the team would benefit.

goon wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:

Thats a bit reductive. There is a difference between thinking someone didn't deserve to be booed off on a specific occasion and thinking all negative feedback from fans is out of order.

No one has said all negative feedback is out of order though, that's frankly impossible unless you have robots to fill the stadium. The debate is about whether or not fans should have to try  and regulate their behavior and be more supportive, and the Xhaka incident is just a very obvious example of a circumstance where they should have. 

Boos after an embarrising loss at home or a bad run of results after the final whistle? Absolutely fine as far as i'm concerned. Ironic cheers during subs or whatever, or groans after a misplaced pass? Forget what the club says, as a fan I personally think we can do better, and the team would benefit.

Xhaka didn't help himself though? There were some whistles here and there because he was walking so slowly while we are chasing a game. It only become full blown after his antics.