I get what you're saying, so let's focus on the impact of the fans, rather than their right to vent.

Speedy picked out Almunia, Eboue, Denilson, Gervinho and Ramsey. 4/5 of them were simply not good enough. Was it the fans' abuse that caused this, or was it just a lack of ability? Ramsey got stick and yet he turned it around and became great. Unfortunately injuries derailed him.

Are we saying that if the fans had been nicer, then Almunia, Eboue, Denilson and Gervinho would have suddenly been good enough? I don't think so.

They may have been a bit better if the pressure was affecting them, but I don't believe they would have been good enough.

goon wrote:

There's also a weird idea prevalent in this place and in football in general about what having an accountable culture is. As if throat grabbing, abuse and being a dick is what it means to be accountable and creates an elite mentality.

You set a player a minimum set of expectations, if he doesn't meet it or work towards meeting it, he's out. That's all the pressure and accountability a player needs. Don't be fooled by stories from the invincibles squad members, these guys love harping on about their mentality despite cracking under the pressure several times. It was their talent that made them successful, nothing else.

This is the point.

All this bollocks about fans not being supportive, as a reason for the likes of Al-fucking-munia and Denilson of all players not performing and constantly underperforming is absolutely asinine.

Players underperform 99% because of either talent, or wrong fit due to manager or tactics etc.

If a player has talent, a few jeers or insults is not going to put them under.

Arsenal fans at home are by and large , some of the tamest fans you will see. Our away fans are fucking superb.

To  bring out some of the claptrap from Wenger about the fans, which was only to excuse his own incompetence bringing in some of those players is really telling.

I was at Highbury when Wenger came in to replace Rioch, and let me tell you, if you wanted to know what anxious fans were, that was the time. First time the fans actually saw Arsenal try to pass the ball out of the back.

Forget the fans, I think Adams, Winterburn and Dixon were more anxious than the crowd

There simply was no patience for it, the crowd were on their backs, as really it was the first time in English football anyone had seen such a thing. The media were on us as well, decrying this “foreign football”.

That is pressure. The insults that came with it. “Donkey” Adams trying to pass the ball out.

That is being insulted.

And guess what? They proved to the fans, media and country alike that they could do it.

Why? Because they had a modicum of talent to begin with. So getting on the fans who actually pay to watch the team, is frankly insulting. Football has been dog eat dog, and you have to show heart and perform in order for the fans to be with you. That has always been the case.

The fans never booed Almunia or Denilson in their first games for the club, nor their second. It was after serving up a load of shite over a period of time. Remarkable consistency from them both to be fair.

Shady wrote:

speedy wrote:

1. who wouldn't be put off by by tens of thousand of people abusing them regularly. What does that person look like? Maybe a team of frontal lobotomy patients. But I feel youd be creating a host of new problems. 

2. Well the last few managers have said they need the fans to be supportive. What's their motivation in saying that do you think? 

3. You clearly expressed your displeaser in me being critical and highlighted toh didnt like my "attitude" because I wasn't supportive of fans. While at the same time your happy to be critical of my views. 

1. Arteta himself said that some of our players perform better without the fans because there is less pressure, but others need the fans because having them there motivates them. So clearly it comes down to the mentality of the players.

2. Both Wenger and Emery were doing poor jobs. Of course they are going to want to preserve themselves. They're not going to come out and publicly say "the fans are right to call us shit, because we are shit!" 

Point one is that abuse hurts the plahers performance. And you couldnt describe the type of person who's better under regular abuse because it would be completely abnormal. It'd be mental to think that so you've mentioned arteta says some of thr players play better and some play worse without the fans. Now would you think by any chance mustafi and xhaka the ones who get the abuse thr most are the ones he might be referring to when he says some play better? Just a hunch. 

If you can't connect the link being abusing thr llayers them playing worse and our performance diminishing then we're just going round in circles. 

Wenger said abuse him not the players. So again that final point doesn't make sense. 

speedy wrote:

Shady wrote:

1. Arteta himself said that some of our players perform better without the fans because there is less pressure, but others need the fans because having them there motivates them. So clearly it comes down to the mentality of the players.

2. Both Wenger and Emery were doing poor jobs. Of course they are going to want to preserve themselves. They're not going to come out and publicly say "the fans are right to call us shit, because we are shit!" 

Point one is that abuse hurts the plahers performance. And you couldnt describe the type of person who's better under regular abuse because it would be completely abnormal. It'd be mental to think that so you've mentioned arteta says some of thr players play better and some play worse without the fans. Now would you think by any chance mustafi and xhaka the ones who get the abuse thr most are the ones he might be referring to when he says some play better? Just a hunch. 

If you can't connect the link being abusing thr llayers them playing worse and our performance diminishing then we're just going round in circles. 

Wenger said abuse him not the players. So again that final point doesn't make sense. 

Speedy this is like the chicken and the egg: what came first?

Do you think fans are booing players for shits and giggles? The players get booed because what they're serving up is not good enough. They are already plauing badly without the fans' input.

Xhaka improved his form before the lockdown. Mustafi is still serving up shit without the fans.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

For me it's not about whether fans deserve to vent or not. Isn't it irrelevant whether they deserve it if - even they do deserve it - it has a negative impact? If it has a negative impact then you're hurting the club. And I'm even saying that it definitely does have a negative impact, although I'd think so. Only that if it does, it doesn't matter what the fans deserve.

Building on this... also how you vent. 
I think booing at half time and full time is fine. Whole team absorbs it and there is a  clear message. 

What is not helpful is booing and singling out players during the game. Even worse is bullying them online because then they cannot even compartmentalise. 

Kicking a player when he's down makes the player play worse, the team worse and the performance worse. Its childish lashin out. That doesn't help anyone but actually hurts the team you're paying to watch. Its takes a lot of immaturity to for our fans not to see that.

Shady wrote:

speedy wrote:

Point one is that abuse hurts the plahers performance. And you couldnt describe the type of person who's better under regular abuse because it would be completely abnormal. It'd be mental to think that so you've mentioned arteta says some of thr players play better and some play worse without the fans. Now would you think by any chance mustafi and xhaka the ones who get the abuse thr most are the ones he might be referring to when he says some play better? Just a hunch. 

If you can't connect the link being abusing thr llayers them playing worse and our performance diminishing then we're just going round in circles. 

Wenger said abuse him not the players. So again that final point doesn't make sense. 

Speedy this is like the chicken and the egg: what came first?

Do you think fans are booing players for shits and giggles? The players get booed because what they're serving up is not good enough. They are already plauing badly without the fans' input.

Xhaka improved his form before the lockdown. Mustafi is still serving up shit without the fans.

Again you can't address the point the the abuse makes them play worse. Can you at least admit that? 

ohboy!!! wrote:

goon wrote:

There's also a weird idea prevalent in this place and in football in general about what having an accountable culture is. As if throat grabbing, abuse and being a dick is what it means to be accountable and creates an elite mentality.

You set a player a minimum set of expectations, if he doesn't meet it or work towards meeting it, he's out. That's all the pressure and accountability a player needs. Don't be fooled by stories from the invincibles squad members, these guys love harping on about their mentality despite cracking under the pressure several times. It was their talent that made them successful, nothing else.

This is the point.

All this bollocks about fans not being supportive, as a reason for the likes of Al-fucking-munia and Denilson of all players not performing and constantly underperforming is absolutely asinine.

Players underperform 99% because of either talent, or wrong fit due to manager or tactics etc.

If a player has talent, a few jeers or insults is not going to put them under.

Arsenal fans at home are by and large , some of the tamest fans you will see. Our away fans are fucking superb.

To  bring out some of the claptrap from Wenger about the fans, which was only to excuse his own incompetence bringing in some of those players is really telling.

I was at Highbury when Wenger came in to replace Rioch, and let me tell you, if you wanted to know what anxious fans were, that was the time. First time the fans actually saw Arsenal try to pass the ball out of the back.

Forget the fans, I think Adams, Winterburn and Dixon were more anxious than the crowd

There simply was no patience for it, the crowd were on their backs, as really it was the first time in English football anyone had seen such a thing. The media were on us as well, decrying this “foreign football”.

That is pressure. The insults that came with it. “Donkey” Adams trying to pass the ball out.

That is being insulted.

And guess what? They proved to the fans, media and country alike that they could do it.

Why? Because they had a modicum of talent to begin with. So getting on the fans who actually pay to watch the team, is frankly insulting. Football has been dog eat dog, and you have to show heart and perform in order for the fans to be with you. That has always been the case.

The fans never booed Almunia or Denilson in their first games for the club, nor their second. It was after serving up a load of shite over a period of time. Remarkable consistency from them both to be fair.

Yeah, like I said earlier the responsibility is on the club, manager and players to win the fans over. 

But the two things are not mutually exclusive, fans can help the process by showing more patience, particularly now that we have such a young squad. Sarcastic cheers for Cech when he hit it long last season made me cringe like nothing else.

speedy wrote:

Shady wrote:

Speedy this is like the chicken and the egg: what came first?

Do you think fans are booing players for shits and giggles? The players get booed because what they're serving up is not good enough. They are already plauing badly without the fans' input.

Xhaka improved his form before the lockdown. Mustafi is still serving up shit without the fans.

Again you can't address the point the the abuse makes them play worse. Can you at least admit that? 

I don't believe the effect is as much as you do. I believe the players' ability will dictate their performances, which is why I referred to Xhaka and Mustafi, the two guys in the team who received the most stick.

Shady wrote:

speedy wrote:

Again you can't address the point the the abuse makes them play worse. Can you at least admit that? 

I don't believe the effect is as much as you do. I believe the players' ability will dictate their performances, which is why I referred to Xhaka and Mustafi, the two guys in the team who received the most stick.

By saying you dont want to admot to the effect size which id agree is hard to measure. Youre admitting it has a negative effect. Now we've something to build on. Your attempt to still justify the abuse you're saying thr players ability dictates there preformace. While 2 posts ago you admitted xhaka is playing much better now than he was previously. Which really goes against your most recent point that their ability dictates performance. 

You've came as far as to admit its damaging albeit not directly because you know it destroys your argument. Then we had that side track that goes against your point. But let's not get distracted by it. 

How important is confidence to a players performance? In your opinion based on all the football you've played and watched. 

speedy wrote:

Shady wrote:

I don't believe the effect is as much as you do. I believe the players' ability will dictate their performances, which is why I referred to Xhaka and Mustafi, the two guys in the team who received the most stick.

By saying you dont want to admot to the effect size which id agree is hard to measure. Youre admitting it has a negative effect. Now we've something to build on. Your attempt to still justify the abuse you're saying thr players ability dictates there preformace. While 2 posts ago you admitted xhaka is playing much better now than he was previously. Which really goes against your most recent point that their ability dictates performance. 

You've came as far as to admit its damaging albeit not directly because you know it destroys your argument. Then we had that side track that goes against your point. But let's not get distracted by it. 

How important is confidence to a players performance? In your opinion based on all the football you've played and watched. 

There is a middle ground here. Just because you are at one extreme does not mean that I am going to go right to the other end because I disagree with you.

Xhaka is playing better and as I said that occured before lockdown. I would put that down to having a better manager, rather than blaming the fans. Mustafi has no fans booing him and yet still does the same dumb shit. These are the two players that you picked out and yet it is clear that it is not the fans that dictate their performances. 

 Players also have ceilings. You can clap them all you like but that isn't going to turn shit into gold, so blaming the fans for the shit performances is wrong, which is why I disagree with your stance.

I am happy to continue debating this, but I need to go out for a few hours, so won't be able to reply immediately.

speedy wrote:

Shady wrote:

Speedy this is like the chicken and the egg: what came first?

Do you think fans are booing players for shits and giggles? The players get booed because what they're serving up is not good enough. They are already plauing badly without the fans' input.

Xhaka improved his form before the lockdown. Mustafi is still serving up shit without the fans.

Again you can't address the point the the abuse makes them play worse. Can you at least admit that? 

Of course it adds unnecessary pressure on the player. But it all boils down to the fact that the player is not good enough, both mentally and technically to be in a big club then. And most mentally weak players don't last anywhere too so ultimately it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things if they suffer abuse here. I also happen to think Arsenal fans treat their players far far better than most other big clubs. You won't be able to drive out of training ground unscathed if you perform like this week in week out for Madrid for example.

It's not a unique problem to us.

IMO a major factor in regards to the supporters reaction to the team and individuals is if they feel engaged or listened to, mixed with a healthy dose of 'fool me once'.
If the supporters don't feel like they are listened to or taken seriously and are disrespected with nothing perceived to be changing, then they grow restless. Combine that to paying the highest ticket prices for a poor product, particularly one involving an emotional commitment, and eventually emotions will get the better in terms of response and supporters will vent at those who are seen to contribute to the issue.
IMO the club and AW both had a massive impact on the supporters turning on the team and players, and whilst AW has departed many of those same players and issues remain, so the supporters are still less inclined to forgive and forget.

Arteta is a good coach.

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert wrote:

Arteta is a good coach.

I like his recent comments about not wasting time with players you need to convince to sign,
and more so after these latest results and performances.
Sure we didn't dominate the ball or match stats, but we did where it counted.
If players cannot see the potential from those results then we're better without them.

Anzac wrote:

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert wrote:

Arteta is a good coach.

I like his recent comments about not wasting time with players you need to convince to sign,
and more so after these latest results and performances.
Sure we didn't dominate the ball or match stats, but we did where it counted.
If players cannot see the potential from those results then we're better without them.

In general I agree, but for me if it takes a bit of convincing to sign a top player, who you are sure will make a difference, then you do it. Not being in the CL will make some players pause, so if you need to arm twist, then that what we have to do.

Clrnc wrote:

speedy wrote:

Again you can't address the point the the abuse makes them play worse. Can you at least admit that? 

Of course it adds unnecessary pressure on the player. But it all boils down to the fact that the player is not good enough, both mentally and technically to be in a big club then. And most mentally weak players don't last anywhere too so ultimately it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things if they suffer abuse here. I also happen to think Arsenal fans treat their players far far better than most other big clubs. You won't be able to drive out of training ground unscathed if you perform like this week in week out for Madrid for example.

It's not a unique problem to us.

ramsey, gervihno, xhaka   bellers 3 years ago started getting a lot of stick aswell none of these were that bad compared to the strength of the rest of the team.  

I wish I could send some of you lot out there to get booed. And then we can come back and talk about how much money you’re making. Be a man