jones wrote:

Almunia suffered from depression, probably wasn't helped by the abuse he took. Wenger went on record talking about shielding Gervinho from the home fans. Same with Eboue

Our home support is abject but so is every big club's, doubly so in England.

AW also said the fans base should support the team without question, and he has called out season ticket holders and shareholders who questioned himself or the players as not being 'real' supporters.

He also made comment about the supporters forcing the club's hand to move him out, & sounded bitter when he accused those supporters of 'short term-ism' and not seeing the bigger picture.

swider wrote:

speedy wrote:

Denilson has spoken about his depression that set in here aswell. He never recovered.

A lot of these fans are adults so they should realise the consequences of their actions. If a players plays poorly then he knows it. The fans feel anger because that poor performance is hurting their teams chance of success. They spit that anger back at thr player and they give him some abuse, so short term they get to vent so they feel better for a few seconds. The players form dips further and hurts the team more. And then thr fans get more and more angry. As an adult you have to realise the consequences of your own actions.

Well Denilson could have tried passing forward from time to time, it would have saved many people from suffering depression too.

Hahaha

They are professional footballers. Accepting criticism goes with the territory, actual abuse is a shame but also to be expected if your performances are abominable.

I find it extremely hard to feel sorry for these guys who earn in a week what the average person earns in a year.

Don't like the heat? Work a couple of years and retire.

speedy wrote:

Shady wrote:

Speedy you talk a lot of shit about our fans. Think you need to get off your high horse.

These players are paid very handsomely, while the fans pay a lot to attend. They deserve to vent their frustration when it is evident that certain players are going through the motions.

It's a nobel stead. Almunia, eboue, ramsey and gervihno were as hard working as anyone we've had surley? Why do you put those in the going through the motions bracket? 

Gervinho was hard-working, but Almunia definitely went through the motions. Eboue had a period of seemingly not playing seriously. Ramsey got stick for not letting runners go.
As for Denilson, he said the main reason for his depression was that he was isolated in the squad, largely because he couldn't speak English. When Gilberto left it was a downward spiral. 

It seems like you want an environment where players are moddycoddled. We've been through this, and we lost our competitive edge as a result. 

To be clear, I think there's a balance needed. I didn't agree with the Xhaka booing, it became something more. But fans absolutely deserve to vent frustrations and it is not something exclusive to Arsenal.

Burnwinter wrote:

They are professional footballers. Accepting criticism goes with the territory, actual abuse is a shame but also to be expected if your performances are abominable.

I find it extremely hard to feel sorry for these guys who earn in a week what the average person earns in a year.

Don't like the heat? Work a couple of years and retire.

The financial side of it isn't the point I was making although its interesting to think there's  sum of money that if you earn past that particular point its OK to abuse you to menal health issues. But let's stick a pin in that point.

But the point I was making was abusing your own team is just poor impulse control like a small child. As it makes the player worse the team performance worse and the results you dont like worse. Deep down they know its damaging for thr team but abusing the player lets them vent so they feel good for a few seconds.

Shady wrote:

speedy wrote:

It's a nobel stead. Almunia, eboue, ramsey and gervihno were as hard working as anyone we've had surley? Why do you put those in the going through the motions bracket? 

Gervinho was hard-working, but Almunia definitely went through the motions. Eboue had a period of seemingly not playing seriously. Ramsey got stick for not letting runners go.
As for Denilson, he said the main reason for his depression was that he was isolated in the squad, largely because he couldn't speak English. When Gilberto left it was a downward spiral. 

It seems like you want an environment where players are moddycoddled. We've been through this, and we lost our competitive edge as a result. 

To be clear, I think there's a balance needed. I didn't agree with the Xhaka booing, it became something more. But fans absolutely deserve to vent frustrations and it is not something exclusive to Arsenal.

Do you actually believe any of that? You said these guys weren't hard working almunia, ramsey, eboue and gervihno were really hard working. And denilson learned English.

And my point wasn't about protecting players. It was about the stupidity of fans hurting their own team. 

speedy wrote:

Shady wrote:

Gervinho was hard-working, but Almunia definitely went through the motions. Eboue had a period of seemingly not playing seriously. Ramsey got stick for not letting runners go.
As for Denilson, he said the main reason for his depression was that he was isolated in the squad, largely because he couldn't speak English. When Gilberto left it was a downward spiral. 

It seems like you want an environment where players are moddycoddled. We've been through this, and we lost our competitive edge as a result. 

To be clear, I think there's a balance needed. I didn't agree with the Xhaka booing, it became something more. But fans absolutely deserve to vent frustrations and it is not something exclusive to Arsenal.

Do you actually believe any of that? You said these guys weren't hard working almunia, ramsey, eboue and gervihno were really hard working. And denilson learned English.

And my point wasn't about protecting players. It was about the stupidity of fans hurting their own team. 

I already said Gervinho was hardworking. 
The other three were all worthy of criticism during their time here, for various reasons.

My issue is your high horse attitude towards our fans. They pay their money to watch the games, and as long as they are not breaking any rules or saying anything inappropriate then they are entitled to vent their frustrations. 

I would say the team being hurt is more a reflection on the mentality of certain players. If you can't handle some boos or groans then you're not of the top level mentality. And in fact very few are of that level. I'm not sitting here thinking I could handle it, but when you are paid astronomical money, you HAVE to be able to handle it.

My cousin took me to loads of West Ham games when I was younger. We were sat right at the front. Curbishley and the players there used to regularly get some sickening abuse. Far far worse than anything I've heard at Arsenal. Our fans can be petulant, but we're really not that bad for a Premier League team. Not at all. 

For what it's worth, I'm with Speedy. Feels quite simple to me.

1. Don't boo your own players, you're only hurting the team.
2. Be respectful of everyone's mental health.

...and I'm not saying our players should be above criticism. But once you're in the stadium, give them all your backing even if you don't like some of them.

I don't know how other teams can perform so well when they have fans even more toxic than us. Ours is considered so so mild compared to the Spanish giants and the Italian fans.

By this theory all their players should be mentally shattered and can't avoid making mistakes too.

Shady wrote:

speedy wrote:

Do you actually believe any of that? You said these guys weren't hard working almunia, ramsey, eboue and gervihno were really hard working. And denilson learned English.

And my point wasn't about protecting players. It was about the stupidity of fans hurting their own team. 

My issue is your high horse attitude towards our fans. They pay their money to watch the games, and as long as they are not breaking any rules or saying anything inappropriate then they are entitled to vent their frustrations. 

So just so your clear you feel fans should be allowed to abuse the team. Which id agree they can do as they wish. I'm just highlighting its counter productive. As it makes thd team play worse so the performances are worse. Its poor impulse  control like a small child. 

And the defense that its ok because someone else does it. What kind of age bracket would you say people who use the defense most sit in? 

Just out of intrest why exactly do you think they can voice their opinion and i can't voice mine? 
 

Clrnc wrote:

I don't know how other teams can perform so well when they have fans even more toxic than us. Ours is considered so so mild compared to the Spanish giants and the Italian fans.

By this theory all their players should be mentally shattered and can't avoid making mistakes too.

How has that worked out for bale?

I'm not saying for mental health purposes we need to be nice to them. I'm just saying its child like to pay money to support a team and if they hurt your feelings you lash out like a small child. Forgetting the whole point of going was to help the team, and at that point your're essentially paying money to hurt the team you support. Would you consider those the actions of someone who's reasonable, grown up/ mature/ adult like. 

Clrnc wrote:

I don't know how other teams can perform so well when they have fans even more toxic than us. Ours is considered so so mild compared to the Spanish giants and the Italian fans.

By this theory all their players should be mentally shattered and can't avoid making mistakes too.

I can't quite tell objectively, but AFTV and Arsenal twitter are pretty frontline toxic in their potential.

speedy wrote:

Shady wrote:

My issue is your high horse attitude towards our fans. They pay their money to watch the games, and as long as they are not breaking any rules or saying anything inappropriate then they are entitled to vent their frustrations. 

So just so your clear you feel fans should be allowed to abuse the team. Which id agree they can do as they wish. I'm just highlighting its counter productive. As it makes thd team play worse so the performances are worse. Its poor impulse  control like a small child. 

And the defense that its ok because someone else does it. What kind of age bracket would you say people who use the defense most sit in? 

Just out of intrest why exactly do you think they can voice their opinion and i can't voice mine? 
 

1. I'm not saying it is right for fans to abuse or that it is "a good thing". I am saying that they have a right to groan or complain and if a player can't handle that then they need to be replaced by someone who can.

2. That wasn't what I was saying at all. I used that comparison to point out that you are overblowing the negativity of Arsenal fans. 

3. You are voicing your opinion are you not? I am just disagreeing with your criticism of our fans, while you are disagreeing with my defence of them. We are both entitled to our opinions.

Don Pacifico wrote:

For what it's worth, I'm with Speedy. Feels quite simple to me.

1. Don't boo your own players, you're only hurting the team.
2. Be respectful of everyone's mental health.

...and I'm not saying our players should be above criticism. But once you're in the stadium, give them all your backing even if you don't like some of them.

I hear you, but ive always been of the opinion that the team leads and the fans follow. Its a symbiotic relationship, yes, but the spark has to start somewhere,  and it starts with the team and club giving the fans something to shout for. Im glad arteta came out and said this in plain terms. It amplifies accountability when the coach takes ownership like that

Shocking lack of understanding around mental health in here.

Not sure how anyone who watched football for a prolonged period can argue against the impact that fans can have.

Obviously if you've got world class players in a top team the impact won't be as pronounced because the game comes easier to the players. If you're a young, struggling team trying to learn a new style of play and you have fans sarcastically cheering you hitting the ball long after failing to pass it out the back, that's another matter entirely.

If when Mustafi had gifted Sterling a chance the fans were around do you not think they'd have been screaming for him to clear it in the buildup to our goal? Do you think it would have had no impact? Do you think we'd have seen that insane level of composure from everyone? I doubt it.

Shady wrote:

speedy wrote:

So just so your clear you feel fans should be allowed to abuse the team. Which id agree they can do as they wish. I'm just highlighting its counter productive. As it makes thd team play worse so the performances are worse. Its poor impulse  control like a small child. 

And the defense that its ok because someone else does it. What kind of age bracket would you say people who use the defense most sit in? 

Just out of intrest why exactly do you think they can voice their opinion and i can't voice mine? 
 

1. I'm not saying it is right for fans to abuse or that it is "a good thing". I am saying that they have a right to groan or complain and if a player can't handle that then they need to be replaced by someone who can.

2. That wasn't what I was saying at all. I used that comparison to point out that you are overblowing the negativity of Arsenal fans. 

3. You are voicing your opinion are you not? I am just disagreeing with your criticism of our fans, while you are disagreeing with my defence of them. We are both entitled to our opinions.

1. who wouldn't be put off by by tens of thousand of people abusing them regularly. What does that person look like? Maybe a team of frontal lobotomy patients. But I feel youd be creating a host of new problems. 

2. Well the last few managers have said they need the fans to be supportive. What's their motivation in saying that do you think? 

3. You clearly expressed your displeaser in me being critical and highlighted toh didnt like my "attitude" because I wasn't supportive of fans. While at the same time your happy to be critical of my views. 

speedy wrote:

Shady wrote:

1. I'm not saying it is right for fans to abuse or that it is "a good thing". I am saying that they have a right to groan or complain and if a player can't handle that then they need to be replaced by someone who can.

2. That wasn't what I was saying at all. I used that comparison to point out that you are overblowing the negativity of Arsenal fans. 

3. You are voicing your opinion are you not? I am just disagreeing with your criticism of our fans, while you are disagreeing with my defence of them. We are both entitled to our opinions.

1. who wouldn't be put off by by tens of thousand of people abusing them regularly. What does that person look like? Maybe a team of frontal lobotomy patients. But I feel youd be creating a host of new problems. 

2. Well the last few managers have said they need the fans to be supportive. What's their motivation in saying that do you think? 

3. You clearly expressed your displeaser in me being critical and highlighted toh didnt like my "attitude" because I wasn't supportive of fans. While at the same time your happy to be critical of my views. 

1. Arteta himself said that some of our players perform better without the fans because there is less pressure, but others need the fans because having them there motivates them. So clearly it comes down to the mentality of the players.

2. Both Wenger and Emery were doing poor jobs. Of course they are going to want to preserve themselves. They're not going to come out and publicly say "the fans are right to call us shit, because we are shit!" 

There's also a weird idea prevalent in this place and in football in general about what having an accountable culture is. As if throat grabbing, abuse and being a dick is what it means to be accountable and creates an elite mentality.

You set a player a minimum set of expectations, if he doesn't meet it or work towards meeting it, he's out. That's all the pressure and accountability a player needs. Don't be fooled by stories from the invincibles squad members, these guys love harping on about their mentality despite cracking under the pressure several times. It was their talent that made them successful, nothing else.