Which laws is it talking about when it mentions grey areas? Because the new rule that everyone is whinging about has turned a grey area into black and white.

Perhaps it's the fans that need to adjust rather than the rules (or just the rules)?

Spain ( 10 March 2019 ).
The referee calls the VAR but there was no one in the video room.
Played then continued on!
https://www.calciomercato.com/en/news/from-spain-the-referee-calls-the-var-but-no-one-is-there-video-95501

31/12/2018.
VAR incidents that have been criticised the most in the first half of La Liga 2018/2019.
https://www.marca.com/en/football/spanish-football/2018/12/31/5c23901922601dcd1f8b460a.html

All 20 Premier League grounds are equipped with the technology which will allow decisions to be assessed from the VAR hub in Stockley Park, west London.

VAR will be used for 'clear and obvious errors' in four areas: - Goals, penalties, straight red cards and mistaken identity.

This will lead to changes in the viewing experience for fans:

Television: Viewers will be able to see what the video assistant referees watch, including an 'over the shoulder' angle of the officials in the studio. The VAR team will be announced in advance, as per the on-field refereeing group. Broadcasters will be keen matches do not extend too much over the regular 90 minutes, particularly Sky when it has double-headers, with matches kicking off at 14:00 and 16:00 BST.

Stadium: Information about a VAR check will appear on the big screens at the 18 grounds which are equipped with them ie 'Checking red card'. When a decision is overturned, a video of the incident will be shown when appropriate. At the two grounds which do not have screens - Anfield (Liverpool) and Old Trafford (Manchester United), announcements will be made via the scoreboard and PA.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49057675

Video Assistant Refereeing is being used for the first time in the Premier League.
On both weekends of the season so far the technology has played a huge role.
Man City were denied against West Ham before VAR cancelled a winner vs Spurs.
Mark Clattenburg, Jamie Redknapp and Martin Keown discuss :
https://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/sport/football/article-7369625/How-change-VAR-Sportsmail-experts-debate-hot-topic.html

Muswell Hill Gooner wrote:

USING the tight offside given against Raheem Sterling last weekend as an example, it can be shown how VAR has a margin of error that means officials sometimes cannot be certain 1 if someone is offside.

Imaging software showed Sterling to be 2.4cm offside ( just under an inch). Sterling was moving at about 14.5mph (23.4kph). Cameras used by VAR run at 50 frames per second. In the 0.02 secs between frames, he would move 13cm. If he was 2.4cm offside at Frame B that means he was 10.6cm onside at Frame A when the 2 ball was about to be played.

VAR has to use the frame which shows the ball has categorically been played but the exact ‘first point of contact’ is likely to have been between Frame A and Frame B. At an unknown point between those frames, Sterling went from 3 onside to offside.

VAR cannot have known for certain when the ball was played so there is a 13cm margin of error on a decision which ruled Sterling 2.4cm offside. It could be bigger than that too. The faster players move in opposite directions, the larger the margin of error.

The Mail on Sunday 18/08/2019
via https://www.pressreader.com/

I mentioned after the Sterling call that they should adjust the paramaters, taking account the margin of error seems like a good way to do that, i.e. a player must be at least 15cm offside or whatever a reasonable figure is before it's called.

I don't think it should matter whether you're 1 meter or 1 centimeter offside. If we actually have the technology to call it then let's call it. If there is an error margin due to the framerate like that article suggests, however, then why not just call every situation that is affected by it as "being in line"? If we've reached the limits of both human perception and technology it would stand to reason that offside can't be called fairly, and the goal should be given.

just adjust for the margin of error and keep it going.

i'm the type that always hated a good arsenal goal being disallowed more than i liked a bad goal being allowed, so i've been on board the VAR train.

I refuse to believe they cannot improve on that technology.

I agree with Mark Clattenburg ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Clattenburg ) and Martin Samuel ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Samuel ) as i would hate to be sat there waiting for however long with no clue as to why the decision was made one way or the other when the camera footage exists and could easily be shown if they wanted to. The only reason i can think of is them trying to save the embarrassment of egotistical refs like Mike Dean who may be butt-hurt when the video shows them to be blind/biased/wrong!

Muswell Hill Gooner wrote:

Do we hear the regular referee?

Claudius wrote:

Do we hear the regular referee?

I don't think that is important as the regular ref is just as unsure as everybody else. What they are asking for is simply the same as what they already show on TV. Replay footage.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/49057675

VAR is good, needs refinement of course. The new handball rule for attacking teams is fucking dumb.

Match of the Day pundits slam Wolves players for VAR complaints

"The rules are very clear in terms of being set out," said Jenas, "If it hits your hand and it creates a goal it's going to be disallowed.

Fellow pundit Neville agreed, ...
"What we did find out in the (Women's) World Cup is that the handball is the worst rule, it will get challenged and looked at.
"They know the rules and they have been briefed, but we just have to get on with it.
"You saw with the West Ham and (Manchester) City game yesterday (Saturday), it's offside, deal with it.
"There has been so much rubbish and drama. Ultimately, there have been three decisions by VAR this weekend and they have all been correct by the rules."

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/get-it-match-day-pundits-3199845
However one City player seems to disagree

Let’s respond to Ilkay. I had a similar complaint at first, but let’s play a goal scenario.
The VAR will likely be reviewed when a ball has gone in. In the event that a ball is in and the defender has handled the ball, the referee will give advantage to the attacking team and award the goal. It does not make sense to pull play back and disadvantage the offensive team once they have scored.
So I think Ilkay is wrong there.
The rule is fine. It will take a while to adjust to because it ‘appears’ to go after every handball. What the rule in conjunction with VAR does is give us clarity. There can be no debate about situations like Koscielny handling the ball going forward. You handle, it’s disallowed. Let’s stay out of the murkiness of intent. In the end, it’s imperfect because it broadens the scope of punishment for the offensive team. But it’s cleaner for interpretation.

https://www.pocket-lint.com/tv/news/144826-what-is-var

IFAB has told the Premier League & Bundesliga to get in line on VAR usage
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-soccer-var/ifab-tell-premier-league-to-get-in-line-on-var-usage-idUKKCN1VC1F8

"I watched Wolves play Manchester United on Monday. The goal Wolves scored was glorious and you could see from the way everyone on their bench reacted that it was something they had worked on to get Ruben Neves in that position. He provided the wonderful finish from 20 yards.

There wasn't one flicker of complaint from United's players, not a murmur from the coaches. But then Jon Moss signals a possible offside is being examined against Joao Moutinho — the only possible part of his body that could have been infringing was his finger or hand.

And in that moment, the atmosphere fizzled out."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-7387825/PETER-CROUCH-VAR-farce-ruining-game-love-need-make-changes-fast.html

I don’t get why VAR was so slow in that instance. The check should have been done by the time they finished celebrating. Instead it looks like they only started the check after.

Claudius wrote:

So I think Ilkay is wrong there.

He's wrong because he thinks rules are supposed to be equal for everyone on the pitch, which is not their purpose at all. The potential outcome is not the same so why should the rules be?

Who knew that giving technology to fucking dinosaurs would result in massive delays. We saw glimpses of it last season when they took half a day to chalk off a goal in the League Cup which was obvious in real time.

The PGMO houses the world's worst refs by far but even they can't be that inept. Genuinely believe they're being difficult to thwart the introduction of VAR ex post facto.

After the spurs game, i'm warming to VAR as Mike Dean's influence was reduced. As a few have already said it's just the time it takes for the decision to be made and as the video evidence clears everything up there's no point for the on-field ref to have another look as he is not going to see anything different. That should save a minute or two off the delay!

Why don't the refs just go to the screen to judge themselves? That was so clear

Mirth wrote:

However, I'm not sure how this wasn't a pen:

Posted in the other thread already. Normally youd say unbelievable but this is par for the course for an organisation that would literally rather ruin the game than allow criticism of their own. Apparently the official explanation is the difference between the original call and the reviewed footage isn't grave enough

So far the PL refs have been awful at using VAR. I knew we had terrible refs, but I kind of thought they'd recognize fouls when they watched them in slow motion replay on a screen.

In fairness to the refs it’s the guidance from the PL that’s the issue. They wanted to have a high threshold I assume to minimise the amount of time wasted by the match refs having to have a second look on subjective calls. I actually get the logic, but it looks like a farce when you have something where 8/10 would say it’s a pen and they still refuse to overturn it.

VAR itself is a can of worms, I don’t think it’s an easy thing to implement without a cost.

I agree and hope these grievances are addressed properly by a strong outside body (maybe the League Managers Association?) as i don't trust the FA or the Referees' Association to do much.
Turkeys voting for Christmas and all that!

As VAR is here to stay, the advantage gained by offenders in the "phases of play" interpretation needs to be looked at. Also it's scope may have to be widened to include more than "goals".
In the Liverpool vs Arsenal match, Aubameyang was played through and was clearly offside so had he scored, VAR would have disallowed it. He was tackled and a corner was given to Arsenal.
Now, if Arsenal scored from that corner, it wouldn't have been fair.

It's true, but if the choice in situations like these is between conceding an offside goal because of the limits of the linesman – which is how it used to be – and conceding a corner because of the limits of VAR usage I would take the corner every time as the defending team.

It takes time to move players up the field to take a corner though. You'd think VAR would have been able to look at the situation meanwhile and then change the decision before it was taken. On my telly it only took five seconds to get a rerun that clearly showed Auba being offside. It's a little damning that video reviewing is still so much slower than tv broadcasting.

As someone who has an unhealthy distrust of refs, i agree with this

Muswell Hill Gooner wrote:

... The only reason i can think of is them trying to save the embarrassment of egotistical refs like Mike Dean who may be butt-hurt when the video shows them to be blind/biased/wrong!

I came across the below article about implementation of VAR in a local paper which ties in with the above point that i feel is the elephant in the room. I think the FA is worried that the golden goose that the Premiership is cannot be associated with incompetence/corruption.

"Politically motivated in order not to embarrass match officials, the bar to overturn a decision has been set high, but nevertheless subjectively, and its poor implementation is making a farce of a review system that can work well.
In cricket, umpires are not protected if they are found to make a wrong decision, although they have a marginal error filter under "umpires call" which works well.
I think for VAR to be allowed to work without politically motivated intervention by the governing bodies something similar to "umpires call" will need to be brought into VAR.
At the moment its not working for me. Yesterday's game against Norwich and the decision by VAR not to award a penalty for a clear foul on Azpi was a joke and provides strong evidence that the governing bodies have simply got VAR wrong"

For reference, the Umpire Decision Review System (UDRS or DRS) is a technology-based system used in cricket to assist the match officials with their decision-making. The components in UDRS are:

Television replays, including slow motion.
Hawk-Eye, Eagle Eye, or Virtual Eye: ball-tracking technology that plots the trajectory of a bowling delivery that has been interrupted by the batsman/batswoman, often by the pad, and can predict whether it would have hit the stumps.
Snickometer or Ultra-edge (Hawk-Eye's version): directional microphones to detect small sounds made as the ball hits the bat or pad. The use of the original Snickometer was superseded by Real Time Snicko in 2013.
Hot Spot: Infra-red imaging system that shows where the ball has been in contact with bat or pad. Improved cameras were introduced for the 2012 season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umpire_Decision_Review_System

Edit: note the years this technology was implemented (even earlier for American sports).

This was the weekend when Italian football fans received their full introduction to the video assistant referee. It is fair to say that not everyone gets it just yet. There was confusion enough before a ball had even been kicked about whether it should be referred to as il VAR or la VAR – taking a masculine or feminine definite article.  

Overall, the VAR contributed to referees getting more decisions right on the opening weekend than they otherwise might. The lingering concern is whether the process remains too disruptive to the flow of the game. It took 97 seconds for Maresca to award Cagliari’s penalty against Juventus, during which both sets of players were left milling around, looking bemused.

The pause to review Miranda’s penalty-area challenge on Simeone at San Siro dragged on even longer and [size=medium]at present it feels as if not enough information is being given to fans.[/size] Unlike at a rugby game, for instance, where supporters can listen in on conversations between match referees and video assistants via the stadium PA, audiences at the weekend got nothing more than the match official miming a TV screen to explain the break in the play.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/aug/21/serie-a-opening-weekend-good-advert-video-assistant-referee

they have to let people in the stadium know what's going on. at the very least show them the same replays the officials are watching.

It's such a small thing with a lot more positives than negatives and i cannot think of a good enough reason as to why they bowed to what could only have been the referees' union.

How did the VAR ref not spot that this is a blatant dive and overturn the penalty call ?

That's ridiculous.

Meatwad wrote:

they have to let people in the stadium know what's going on. at the very least show them the same replays the officials are watching.

They never show replays of incidents at the stadium. Goals and chances yeah but if theres an offside or a controversial tackle, disallowed goal, etc its all left out.

mentalvortex wrote:

How did the VAR ref not spot that this is a blatant dive and overturn the penalty call?

It seems most sites have deleted the video.
https://www.football-italia.net/143334/montella-i-cannot-accept-var-decision

Edit:
Although the two referees have not been punished with the usual one or two match suspension, they have been downgraded and won’t be the main referees in any of the next Serie A games.
https://www.calciomercato.com/en/news/referee-and-assistant-of-juventus-milan-punished-after-controver-73890

Where is VAR?