Sexual Harassment Allegations: Page 7 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Sexual Harassment Allegations

Big Willie

Daz wrote:
Burnwinter wrote:
The principle of "believing women" doesn't rule out the possibility of a woman lying.

It's a default or initial position that takes into account the statistical rarity of false accusations, the personal risks women take when coming forward, and the long history of disgraceful slander and public shaming of women who do speak about acts of violence committed against them.

It's a matter of political practice.

Yep I agree completely. It's far more likely that actual crimes go unreported or don't proceed to court than false accusations being made.

I fully agree with the sentiments above.

That being said I feel like I need to share the following. I personally have a friend who was falsely accused of rape after a one night stand with a woman and was held on remand in prison for almost 3 months before it was proven that this woman had tried the same thing not once, but on two separate occasions in the past. Those are three horrible months for him and his family. Three months of his life he lost in a cage for what turned out to be a lie.

Not to say that this is a common occurrence however it does happen. Those who do assault and harass women should be punished but should be presumed innocent until the facts are known.

There needs to be due processing otherwise people end up being labelled rapists and whatnot even before it is proven to be the case.

banduan

Agreed Big Wills. Unfortunately though it's incredibly difficult to prove rape and we do need to cut the rape accusers every slack, not some. One of those situations where we're just forced to be perpetualy perceptive and vigilant.

Tony Montana

Big Willie wrote:
Daz wrote:
Yep I agree completely. It's far more likely that actual crimes go unreported or don't proceed to court than false accusations being made.

I fully agree with the sentiments above.

That being said I feel like I need to share the following. I personally have a friend who was falsely accused of rape after a one night stand with a woman and was held on remand in prison for almost 3 months before it was proven that this woman had tried the same thing not once, but on two separate occasions in the past. Those are three horrible months for him and his family. Three months of his life he lost in a cage for what turned out to be a lie.

Not to say that this is a common occurrence however it does happen. Those who do assault and harass women should be punished but should be presumed innocent until the facts are known.

There needs to be due processing otherwise people end up being labelled rapists and whatnot even before it is proven to be the case.

Maybe your mate should have thought twice before going ahead with the one night stand...

flobaba

Would you have said that if his mate was a woman who got raped during a one night stand?

That's that "that's what you get" attitude. Essentially victim blaming / shaming which is what we accuse men of doing to women. It's not okay.

goon

On a slightly different note, is it right that the rules for men and women are different? I’ve had someone kiss me on the neck and squeeze parts of my body, and no, it wasn’t welcome on either occasion. There’s a gay bloke in the office as well who most of the women in the office seem to think has absolutely no boundaries as far as far as touching him goes. Lots of unsolicited hugs etc.

Do the differing dynamics at play matter or should it be the same rule for all?

Tony Montana

flobaba wrote:
Would you have said that if his mate was a woman who got raped during a one night stand?

That's that "that's what you get" attitude. Essentially victim blaming / shaming which is what we accuse men of doing to women. It's not okay.

Ironically I made that comment precisely because women get victim blamed all the time. My comment is exactly what it's like for many women.

"she should have thought twice before going home on her own at that time of night"

"she should have worn her clothes decently"

If a woman cries rape then we should believe them. Yes some women lie but do so men.

In the end Big Willie's mate got out as evidence showed his one night stand was lying.

Tony Montana

goon wrote:
On a slightly different note, is it right that the rules for men and women are different? I’ve had someone kiss me on the neck and squeeze parts of my body, and no, it wasn’t welcome on either occasion. There’s a gay bloke in the office as well who most of the women in the office seem to think has absolutely no boundaries as far as far as touching him goes. Lots of unsolicited hugs etc.

Do the differing dynamics at play matter or should it be the same rule for all?

That's sexual harassment. Simple.

Report it or don't if you don't want to. The process should be the same for all genders.

flobaba

It should be the same rule. In reality it isn't. The dynamics and culture absolutely also come into play. I've been groped a couple of times at bars / clubs, eye raped... My wife once almost got into a physical altercation with another woman on a night out in New Orleans recently over an incident like this. Whilst [size=large]unsolicited, I took it as a compliment as I expect most men would.[/size]
[size=large] [/size]
Now I can imagine that shit gets old real quick if it happens to you everyday or very often.

Daz

goon wrote:
On a slightly different note, is it right that the rules for men and women are different? I’ve had someone kiss me on the neck and squeeze parts of my body, and no, it wasn’t welcome on either occasion. There’s a gay bloke in the office as well who most of the women in the office seem to think has absolutely no boundaries as far as far as touching him goes. Lots of unsolicited hugs etc.

Do the differing dynamics at play matter or should it be the same rule for all?

I don't think a person's sexuality is an excuse for inappropriate or illegal behaviour. I had a bit of a falling out a couple of years ago with a friend of a friend who was being far too flirty with my partner. She thought it was ok because she is a lesbian and I told her pretty clearly that doesn't make it ok to be sleazy and make someone feel uncomfortable.

y va marquer

goon wrote:
On a slightly different note, is it right that the rules for men and women are different? I’ve had someone kiss me on the neck and squeeze parts of my body, and no, it wasn’t welcome on either occasion. There’s a gay bloke in the office as well who most of the women in the office seem to think has absolutely no boundaries as far as far as touching him goes. Lots of unsolicited hugs etc.

Do the differing dynamics at play matter or should it be the same rule for all?

Are the rules different?
If a man is being harassed, groped or assaulted by a woman, or another man, then the exact same rules apply.
If men choose not to object or complain about such behaviour then that's another matter.

I notice nobody answered my question from a few posts back so I'll ask it again:

"How many of you have ever been in situations where you have seen or heard of male friends, colleagues or acquaintances groping or harassing?
What have you done about it?
Or have you just left it to somebody else to sort out?"

For the record I've never seen or heard of any female friend / colleague harass, grope or assault a guy or falsely accuse them of rape.

I have to say that even now you guys do not get just how f***** bad it is and just how much it happens to women.
I told of what happened when I was 12 but there have been countless other instances from being jumped by a complete stranger at a party to having a work colleague pull the zip of my dress all the way down my back in a bar in front of everyone.
It's bloody ridiculous.

I don't say this to elicit sympathy I'm saying it now to demonstrate just how normalised and ignored this behaviour has been, how most of us women just get on with life and put the s*** behind us, but it's beginning to look like this thread is veering into the men are the ones suffereing territory - avalanches of false accusations on the horizon, super aggressive females roaming offices throughout the land.
Really??

flobaba

I do feel you y va. And men are not the ones who are suffering. No one has said that. The discussion only veered thus in an anecdotal exploration of potential flip side of the coin. I mentioned at the end of my post how I could only imagine how bothersome and frustrating that kind of nonsense could get.

And even then I appreciate that I probably couldn't.

Regarding your other question I do try my best to speak up whenever I see moments of disgraceful behavior from men, and I am careful to try to recognize such instances in myself. That's the hardest part, especially considering what you have rightly pointed out as a culture that normalizes and labels these sort of incidents as "harmless banter".

y va marquer

Yep, I do imagine it would be difficult to be the guy who calls a halt to the "harmless banter"

flobaba

Now you're being unnecessarily flobaba like.

This is a sensitive topic and I've had my say. I'm out

y va marquer

I wasn't being sarcastic flobaba!! I genuinely think it would be really difficult for a guy to step in and tell a friend or colleague that that behaviour is wrong.

Coombs

y va marquer wrote:
I wasn't being sarcastic flobaba!! I genuinely think it would be really difficult for a guy to step in and tell a friend or colleague that that behaviour is wrong.

I've done it, 3 times I've done it, and every time I've either been ostracized, lost advisers, and/or lost work, and the perpetrators have been either bought out for early retirement for loads of money, been elevated to chair the department, or simply carried on as if nothing happened. One of them gave his victim a fellowship just to shut her up. She took it and never looked back.

y va marquer

That doesn't surprise me Coombs

flobaba

But it is NOT. Not to me anyway. I choose my friends carefully and even with them I’m quite blunt when I think they’re doing wrong. It’s quite simple for me. I’m lucky I grew up in a culture and environment with parenting that showed me how women ought to be treated and respected. In my minds eye every woman is like a sister or mother and I know how I expect my mum and sisters to be treated. I almost had a fight with a guy at a concert over him harassing this young lady while his friends were looking on and laughing. I honestly believe we have a bunch of decent, responsible blokes on here and I just don’t think we are here to blow our trumpets or act the knight in shining armor, so we don’t necessarily have to say we’ve done this or that to defend women if ever the need arises.

Guys have to be able to check each other. No doubt. But you can only do so if you know that what you are witnessing or doing is wrong- and that’s where the culture change and education aspect comes in

arsedocmd

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/happened-women-wage-jobs-metoo-171204161209204.html

goon

Y va, my intention wasn’t to equate it to the level of the issues women are suffering at the hands of men, quite the opposite. In fact my question specifically took into account the comepletely different dynamics at play. The results might be the same from a legal perspective as it should be, but I don’t think social attitudes are. It’s a genuine question whether this is wrong, right or somewhere in between.

To answer your question, I’ve never witnessed it but I was present upon it (gropping) happening once (as did the entire class) back in sixth form. The girl complained immediately and seemed quite upset, the guy apologised immediately. I think I and another guy told him he can’t do that shit (as if you were speaking to a friend rather than a stranger) but I don’t think it occurred to me or anyone else in that class to report it or even give it much more thought.

I reckon there’s a few things that prevent witnessss from doing anything about these things. One is the attitude that it’s ‘up to the victim’ to decide what to do if anything. The second is the perpetrator will often be some sort of an acquaintance, often a ‘nice guy’. The third is a general reluctance to get drawn into something, it’s easier not to.

Shitty reasons but sadly I don’t think any of those attitudes will ever change much.

Bold Tone

Tony Montana wrote:
Big Willie wrote:
I fully agree with the sentiments above.

That being said I feel like I need to share the following. I personally have a friend who was falsely accused of rape after a one night stand with a woman and was held on remand in prison for almost 3 months before it was proven that this woman had tried the same thing not once, but on two separate occasions in the past. Those are three horrible months for him and his family. Three months of his life he lost in a cage for what turned out to be a lie.

Not to say that this is a common occurrence however it does happen. Those who do assault and harass women should be punished but should be presumed innocent until the facts are known.

There needs to be due processing otherwise people end up being labelled rapists and whatnot even before it is proven to be the case.

Maybe your mate should have thought twice before going ahead with the one night stand...

You do realise there is more than those 3 months.
I know an ex-taxi driver who was arrested as a rape suspect because his mobile number was found in the victim's phone.
Of course it was justified as he had called her on arrival and even though she didn't answer and he provided evidence that he never picked her up, he had to wait over 2 years for the CPS to drop the case. Of course his license was immediately cancelled and he was, understandably, restricted from working with the public for the duration. This became a "by and by", however, as his wife demanded that he change his profession.
As the main breadwinner in his family of a wife and year-old child he also had to pay his solicitors fees and you can imagine his job prospects with "rape suspect" on his name for ever.
What would you advise him?
Think twice before becoming a taxi driver?

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