I echo those thoughts Y Va. What you experienced sounds terrible and something no one should go through. It's such a vulnerable time of life too. I really feel for you and hope you're doing ok.

I very much appreciate your contributions to this forum as one of the few women here - I think it really does make a difference, so thanks.

Cheers guys.

Genuinely doing fine - I think it's important to note that - experiences such as mine are regrettably common place, yet they don't have to colour life for ever.

Important too that you guys call your mates out for any groping and harassing that you may witness or get told of.

7 days later

I've been hearing rumours about it for years and years. There was a reasonably well known B-list actor who deleted a tweet about it what seems like four or five years ago.

Had a feeling something like this would come out after he was removed from the Queen movie.

Franken resigning and attacking Roy Moore as he did it was good politics IMO. Moore might win but in the bigger picture at least it shows the Democrats actually give a fuck about sexual harassment. Now they can all go after Moore and the rest of the GOP for supporting/tolerating him

Sure, it had to happen, but make no mistake, this is overall bad for the country. There's a fucking war on, and the closest thing to the "right" side is falling over what amounts to a load of nonsense in the grand scheme, while we let the rest of em rape and pillage their way across the land, destroying everything any of us ever worked to build.

Best way to say sorry is to use your power to make things right, not to relinquish it altogether. He better be replaced with a fucking hardcore feminist attack dog, not some bland white liberal pushover. I don't really give a fuck about this personal bullshit or whether or not people are hypocrites. News flash: they are. The other side only cares about policy. Not ceremony, not morals, policy. That's why they are winning. Infuriating times.

"hardcore feminist attack dog" vs "bland white liberal pushover"

Are those our only options?

In recent times, the issues with American politics as I see it has been the introduction of the more extreme element. Then when the other side gets into power they reciprocate by putting in an equal and opposite personality to undo the actions of the aforementioned extreme element... etc. The cycle of intolerance continues, never finding middle ground.

I'm confused by this statement 
"the closest thing to the "right" side is falling over what amounts to a load of nonsense in the grand scheme"

What is this "load of nonsense"? 

Is the suggestion here that Franken should have carried on?
That his actions were not serious enough to warrant a resignation?

I'm getting that the underlying argument is not about what he has been accused of doing but about how his continuing in the job would have been perceived.

The Trump era is one of deep and open immorality in politics. Moore is merely one example.........men who proclaim their allegiance to the Christian faith while acting in openly hateful, duplicitous, and plainly murderous ways. In response to this unbearable spectacle, the roughly half of Americans who are actually deeply invested in thinking of themselves as good people are trying to claim a moral high ground. The urge to do so by policing sex is not surprising. As Susan Sontag pointed out more than half a century ago, Christianity has “concentrated on sexual behavior as the root of virtue” and, consequently, “everything pertaining to sex has been a ‘special case’ in our culture.”

The case of Franken makes it all that much more clear that this conversation is, in fact, about sex, not about power, violence, or illegal acts. The accusations against him, which involve groping and forcible kissing, arguably fall into the emergent, undefined, and most likely undefinable category of “sexual misconduct.” Put more simply, Franken stands accused of acting repeatedly like a jerk, and he denies that he acted this way. The entire sequence of events, from the initial accusations to Franken’s resignation, is based on the premise that Americans, as a society, or at least half of a society, should be policing non-criminal behavior related to sex.

I said in the Trump thread when this story broke
" It has turned into mob rule and the only people who will survive it are men like Trump and Moore who know no shame, lie as a matter of course and honestly believe that they can abuse, harass and grope whomever they please.
Franken will have his own day of reckoning - he's admitted what he did, he will pay the price."
(Except he went on to deny further accusations and didn't apologise)

So currently the choice is to lie, deny and carry on or as Trump did, or as Franken did when enough Dems turned on him, resign.
For the moment there is no middle ground and it's difficult to see how there can be given the individual set of circumstances in every case.

Fear not though, over the coming months and years men who see how "successful" Trump is will be in the ascendency.
Firstly because the majority don't really see groping women as being "all that bad" (hell just walk into a crowded bar in a tight pair of jeans if you want proof, or a crowded Italian bus), and secondly they don't trust  women.

In relation to the relative seriousness of groping, as I said on a previous page: 

"When people talk about a sliding scale consider that the acts that are being classified all involve the infliction of physical or emotional pain, most times both, these acts then provoke feelings of fear, hurt, humiliation, shame, doubt, revulsion and loathing in the person on the receiving end."

The first picture of Franken was in poor taste and deserved an apology. Since then other stories have come out accusing him of sexual assault, forcing kisses on women, grabbing their ass, etc That is completely unacceptable and of course he should lose his position for it. Clinton, HW Bush, Trump 3 of the last 5 US presidents that we know are sexual predators. It isn't an issue where "the other side" don't care. Its happening across the political spectrum, across the world. Its an issue where no one has cared for far too long. Every political party needs to weed out these predators. And its completely abominable to claim they should be allowed to continue unscathed just because its politically beneficial.

Correction - it's an issue that men haven't cared about for far too long, and still don't despite the current hand wringing.

How many of you have ever been in situations where you have seen or heard of male friends, colleagues or acquaintances groping or harassing?
What have you done about it?
Or have you just left it to somebody else to sort out?

"I’m just wondering if all women need to be believed"

If there is solid evidence to suggest that a significant percentage of the women who have gone public with accusations against Weinstein, Moore, Franken etc are lying then there is reason to contemplate whether or not women can be taken at their word in these instances, or whether they should provide concrete proof in order to be believed.

There is no evidence to support the suggestion that a telling  number of the accusations against these men are false.
In fact the number of accusations against the same men from a multitude of different women would support the belief that these women are being truthful.

What is the probability that any woman going public with an accusation is lying her head off?
I would say quite low.

Probability is much higher that women won't go public because they are vulnerable to being shamed and want to avoid a media storm.

Yes, but just like there are shameless men there are also shameless women, and the saying hell hath no fury like a woman scorned isn't legendary for no reason.

I am of the opinion that while there is a lot of truth to many of these tales, quite a few accusations involve women trying to get on the gravy train (in case of a class action lawsuit or whatever), or politically sponsored or just being vengeful over something some of these vile men did that they did not like.

The principle of "believing women" doesn't rule out the possibility of a woman lying.

It's a default or initial position that takes into account the statistical rarity of false accusations, the personal risks women take when coming forward, and the long history of disgraceful slander and public shaming of women who do speak about acts of violence committed against them.

It's a matter of political practice.

Burnwinter wrote:

The principle of "believing women" doesn't rule out the possibility of a woman lying.

It's a default or initial position that takes into account the statistical rarity of false accusations, the personal risks women take when coming forward, and the long history of disgraceful slander and public shaming of women who do speak about acts of violence committed against them.

It's a matter of political practice.

100% agree Bw.

But as the post previous to yours illustrates - there is a misogynistic belief that women are especially  vengeful, conniving, duplicitous - in such numbers as to make it unfeasible to give the benefit of the doubt to women who identity themselves and go public with accusations.

Despite no supporting evidence that any women who have gone public with accusations against Weinstein, Franken or Moore were doing so for monetary, political or vengeful motives.

As I said

Fear not though, over the coming months and years men who see how "successful" Trump is will be in the ascendency.
Firstly because the majority don't really see groping women as being "all that bad" (hell just walk into a crowded bar in a tight pair of jeans if you want proof, or a crowded Italian bus), and secondly they don't trust  women.

Misogynists need not worry.

Burnwinter wrote:

The principle of "believing women" doesn't rule out the possibility of a woman lying.

It's a default or initial position that takes into account the statistical rarity of false accusations, the personal risks women take when coming forward, and the long history of disgraceful slander and public shaming of women who do speak about acts of violence committed against them.

It's a matter of political practice.

Yep I agree completely. It's far more likely that actual crimes go unreported or don't proceed to court than false accusations being made.