kamikaze wrote:

Klaus wrote:

Wanna try again and switch "Denilson" for "Cannavaro" or "Baresi"? Or "Juan", perhaps?

don't be ridiculous, all else being equal, it is always better for a CB to be big and strong. that's why on average, they're the biggest guys on the pitch. but maybe you know better than everyone else. using exceptions to disprove a rule is such a typical klaus tactic.

They're not exceptions and there's no "tactic" therein. I could go on all day. I just pointed to some of the most obvious examples. Nobody's saying that it's a great idea to field a bunch of dwarves but height is just one aspect of defending. There is a lot more to it, and some attributes usually come with a compromise in size. It all depends on what kind of qualities you want. FIFA made a profile a year or two ago over the ideal modern defender, come think of it. They took a lot of variables and tons of research into account. I'll try to find the link later on. Someone compared Vermaelen to it and found that he was almost spot on in every category.

Djourou isn't equal to either Vermaelen or Koscielny in terms of speed, by the way. Doesn't look as agile either to me. Both are flaws directly linked to size.

Ricky1985 wrote:

Not really meaning performance, more in terms of his ceiling. I mean he can run, turn, twist, jump, is extremely strong, has good timing in everything he does, he can pass, has good touch and composure, and his reading of the game and concentration have improved beyond all recognition this season.

In this League and in terms of central defenders, I can only really think of Kompany that has anything close to such a varied skillset.

Ferdinand, mate. Bugs me to admit it because I feel like punching that hare-lipped motherfucker in the face every time I see him, but he's been one of the most complete defenders in the world for the last decade. Off the top of my head I can only think of a handful of players (Nesta, Campbell, Thuram, Cannavaro, Lucio... are there any others?) that have been consistently better.

I personally don't rate Kompany that much. He makes a lot of mistakes that he gets away with simply because he's big and physical and can outmuscle opponents easily. Looks good in closeups but both his positioning and his defending against running opponents needs significant improvement. He cost City a point yesterday with his clueless defending.

Djourou is similar in a way, actually. He's definitely one of the best defenders in the league on current form but he's made mistakes that have been practically identical to the ones Koscielny has made. They just don't get talked about as much, partly because they've resulted in us conceding less goals I suppose (even though it shouldn't really matter). Above all I think people feel more relaxed with a big physical presence at the back, even though it hurts us in other aspects. For instance, Djourou is the one who's responsible most of the time when we fail an offside trap. I'm not sure why but I think it's at least partly related to speed. He's simply not as quick as Kos or Vermaelen and can't afford not to have a little headstart. Part of the reason is related to positioning too I feel. He does let some balls past that the quicker and more agile Kos in turn has to deal with.

The bottom line is that I rate Djourou a lot more than I rate Kompany, but I think both of them are getting too much praise simply for having a good build. Like any player they need good partners to get the most out of their game. That's why football is a team game after all.

Ferdinand, of course, has everything, but he's finished at the top, and has been for a while. That's why I neglected to mention him.

Djourou doesn't quite have the same acceleration as Koscielny and Vermaelen, and he obviously doesn't turn or twist as quickly, but he's quicker at full-tilt - although that's obviously less important. The upside is he's extremely strong, on the ground and in the air.

I've said much the same thing as you about Djourou, especially in regards to Koscielny, but there's no question his reading of the game and his tactical understanding has improved out of sight since his return to the team. Actually I think you could cover it all by just saying his concentration has improved tenfold and it's improved him as a player dramatically. The fact that in his time in the first-team he's always been 6'4, strong and quick, and yet relatively poor, goes to show how important the mental aspects are to a central defender.

Absolutely. I love the way Djourou's come along this season, don't get me wrong. The way him and Kos are playing right now makes them starting material for a club at this level, and that's big praise. I think both have their work cut out for them if they're going to keep someone like Vermaelen out of the team though. He's still a level above both in my opinion.

Vermaelen's brilliant. Better than both, for me. I'd imagine he's probably done alot of weight training to make the best use of his time off, and he should just be reaching his prime physically now, that bit of extra power will make him even better.

There was a stat floating around right before he got injured this season. Apparently he was the only player in Premier League that didn't misplace a single pass in the first two games. In the next one against Blackburn he misplaced one (when he gave the ball away to some cunt that got a free shot on goal and almost scored), but that was about it. And then came that heinous international break and after that we never saw him again.

I know it's not conclusive evidence for anything (if someone feels like nitpicking), but it kind of sums him up as a player. He's one of the best centrebacks in Europe with the ball at his feet. He just reeks of class.

To be fair to the other two, they're not bad either!

The second Vermaelen is capable of playing 90 minutes of good football, I want him at the heart of our defense, alongside Djourou. The union of these two excellent players might mean the difference between us winning the title and giving it away. Vermaelen is a tremendous player and Djourou is finally becoming the player I've always believed he could be. He has been amazing this season. I just love watching him back there. Him and Vermaelen would really be something to behold.

I'm sorry but Squillaci has been poor since he joined. I hope he gets better and fully adapts. I was very happy when he signed because I really thought he was instrumental in getting Monaco to the Champions League Final against Porto but its been really tough for him. I'm fully behind him and hope he emerges as a leader at the back for us but its not looking great right now. The n*wcastle experience really made me reevaluate my estimation of the man.

I just want my Verminator back.

kamikaze wrote:

i miss how toure and campbell in their primes would use their pace to close down attackers and then take them out with a perfectly executed slide tackle. that combination of athleticism and technique is just as satisfying to watch as a slide rule pass from bergkamp.

You know what reminded me of that? Nick's sliding tackle against Wolves
Was perfect!

i'm also not saying vermaelen's not one of the best CB's in the league, so you can stop being so defensive about that. vermaelen's fantastic. he's great with the ball at his feet, and he's got a great leap, but if you're jostling for position with drogba (or jason roberts for that matter), djourou has the better physical tools to deal with that. that's the reality of the english league.

i'm not saying size is the end all, be all. i explicitly said "all things being equal". but size obviously is more important at CB than at other positions, otherwise CB's wouldn't be the biggest players on the pitch, would they? otherwise managers all over the world wouldn't be willing to sacrifice a bit of technique for size when it comes to CB, would they? i dont see how you can argue that. well, i can, it's because you're klaus and you consider yourself some sort of FIFA technical expert/talent scout.

kamikaze wrote:

well, i can, it's because you're klaus and you consider yourself some sort of FIFA technical expert/talent scout.

You're just being ridiculous now. Makes it so not worth having this discussion with you. You come across as someone who doesn't know his arse from his elbow just like you usually do too.

kamikaze wrote:

i'm not saying size is the end all, be all. i explicitly said "all things being equal". but size obviously is more important at CB than at other positions, otherwise CB's wouldn't be the biggest players on the pitch, would they? otherwise managers all over the world wouldn't be willing to sacrifice a bit of technique for size when it comes to CB, would they?

I didn't say that size is unimportant, I said that it's one aspect of many and that there's a tradeoff. It depends on what kind of team you want to build and which style of play you've adopted. The point is that it's never "all things being equal". You can't just form a theoretical example and then ignore everything else. You lose some things in order to gain others. In Djourou's case you lose some recovery speed and agility, for instance, which a Vermaelen or a Koscielny in turn would compensate for. If you're asking me why the majority of the clubs in Europe are adopting a physical approach with a low defensive line and few men in front of the ball then my only answer is that we're not aspiring to emulate most of those clubs. We're a world apart from Blackburn and Stoke both in terms of style and resources.

For what it's worth, I'm glad we didn't sign Samba. He's been dreadful since we were linked to him!

Kos, for the last few months, has been as good as Vermaelen was at any point last season.

Totally agree. Right now Djourou and Koscielny haven't done anything to be dropped.

He's had games where he's been horrific though.

Ipswich away was a disaster. Newcastle, though hardly his fault alone, hardly showed him in a glorious light. Vermaelen, in either of those two games, would have been a massive asset.

He's been pretty good for the last couple of months, on the whole, I'd agree with that, but the majority of the teams we've played recently have been cack anyway - teams in lower divisions and in the relegation scrap, for the most part. He's done well, but I'm still not sure what conclusions to draw.

I actually think both Djourou and Koscielny are better in the air than Vermaelen.

Anyway, I'd stick with the DJ-Kos partnership for now, they look good together and compliment each other really well. But TV will probably force his way back in if he's half the player he looked last season.

Does seem like some of you have forgotten just how dominant Vermaelen was for us. He was popular for way more than his goals. I'd argue that he was as good in the air as Djourou and comfortably better than Koscielny. Also, one of my favourite moments from last season:

Djourou and Vermaelen for me.

I think Koscielny is settling in nicely, but that silly push against Newcastle reminds me that he is never too distant from a silly error. Djourou on the other hand, is having near flawless games and to me looks every bit as good as the much-lauded Kompany this season.

I would hesitate to play Koscielny and Vermaelen together because both have a habit of going walkabout, while Djourou tends to stay more rooted in the back. In addition, helps to have Djourou's presence and Vermaelen's all-around technical ability and athleticism. Koscielny will easily be one of the best substitute defenders next year. No Smalling here.

DJ and Kos, letting TV ease into the side .

The DJ / Kos partnership complement each other very well. (From F365) we've conceded once every 250 odd minutes in the league when DJ has played. As for the overwhelming majority of that, he's played with Kos, it shows the strengths they have as a partnership.

I think with Kos/Squillachi we concede every 57 minutes or something.

kamikaze wrote:

i'm also not saying vermaelen's not one of the best CB's in the league, so you can stop being so defensive about that. vermaelen's fantastic. he's great with the ball at his feet, and he's got a great leap, but if you're jostling for position with drogba (or jason roberts for that matter), djourou has the better physical tools to deal with that. that's the reality of the english league.

really? i've seen djourou "out jostled" numerous times this year. he has comitted himself too much to a challenge, only to end up on the wrong side of the striker (and the ball).

i like djourou a lot, but let's not pretend he's on vermaelen's level just yet.