We need a veteran presence leading our defense, and Squillaci is that man. The younger guys can compete to see who plays next to him

Meatwad wrote:

that's ridiculous. our defense wasn't very good last year and vermaelen was guilty of some very naive shit as well. his goal scoring was a big deal though.

I've had that said to me many times, and it manages to bug me every single time. It's complete bullshit.

Yeah as Klaus said last season, many people say that he's overrated because he scores lots of goals. But in reality his goalscoring means people underrate him because they see his goalscoring as his main weapon.

Unfortunately for Vermaelen he's probably not going to be back at a time when we can afford to ease him in gently so i'd probably stick with Djourou and Koscielny unless one of them drops their level.

The thought of a Djourou Verm partnership next season is mouthwathering though.

Caligula wrote:

We need a veteran presence leading our defense, and Squillaci is that man. The younger guys can compete to see who plays next to him

😆 Pretty sure that's a verbatim quote from ... somewhere ...

Tony Montana wrote:

Why Kami?

I'm not knocking it just wondering.

djourou's just as good technically as vermaelen and kos, but he is bigger and stronger. that counts for a lot, otherwise why not play denilson back there?

he still lacks a bit of aggression, though. he's sort of a dainty, classy european CB like pique. i miss how toure and campbell in their primes would use their pace to close down attackers and then take them out with a perfectly executed slide tackle. that combination of athleticism and technique is just as satisfying to watch as a slide rule pass from bergkamp.

Klaus wrote:

I think Vermaelen is the second best defender in Premier League on pure ability, behind only Ferdinand. Last season Vidic was the only one ahead of him in my opinion. I rated Gallas very highly too as an individual but he didn't seem to gel with the rest of the team as well, which is important enough.

Smalling looked like a player when he broke through at Fulham but he seems to require a lot of work to become even decent. It's all raw ability so far.

Where do you now rank Djourou on that list? In terms of a wide range of abilities, he's got to be right up there, he has it all.

Btw - Vidic had a poor season by his high standards last year. No way was he the best centreback in the Premier League.

kamikaze wrote:

djourou's just as good technically as vermaelen and kos, but he is bigger and stronger. that counts for a lot, otherwise why not play denilson back there?

Because Denilson is not a centreback. Wanna try again and switch "Denilson" for "Cannavaro" or "Baresi"? Or "Juan", perhaps? Vermaelen is the same height as Denilson, by the way. It didn't stop him from outjumping Peter Crouch.

Ricky1985 wrote:

Where do you now rank Djourou on that list? In terms of a wide range of abilities, he's got to be right up there, he has it all.

Btw - Vidic had a poor season by his high standards last year. No way was he the best centreback in the Premier League.

Thinking about it you're probably right. Was injured almost as much as Ferdinand, wasn't he? I was thinking of his 08/09 season.

Re: Djourou, I'm not really sure. Seems wrong to rank someone who's been injury free for five out of the last 24 months. On current form both him and Kos would cause selection headache for any team in the league though. I rate both of them higher than many players who tend to get a lot more praise, like Kompany and Cahill for instance.

Not really meaning performance, more in terms of his ceiling. I mean he can run, turn, twist, jump, is extremely strong, has good timing in everything he does, he can pass, has good touch and composure, and his reading of the game and concentration have improved beyond all recognition this season.

In this League and in terms of central defenders, I can only really think of Kompany that has anything close to such a varied skillset.

Klaus wrote:

Wanna try again and switch "Denilson" for "Cannavaro" or "Baresi"? Or "Juan", perhaps?

don't be ridiculous, all else being equal, it is always better for a CB to be big and strong. that's why on average, they're the biggest guys on the pitch. but maybe you know better than everyone else. using exceptions to disprove a rule is such a typical klaus tactic.

vermaelen is not an asset in the air. campbell was aerially dominant. cygan rarely lost a header (but he also rarely won a footrace). vermaelen's strengths as a defender are his quickness and athleticism, not his physicality.

Honestly, not everyone who's out for a while comes back as useless as Rosicky.

I don't agree, Kami - I think Vermaelen is a good mixture of both quickness/athleticism and physicality. He's also very good in the air, maybe not Campbell-good, but not many are.

kamikaze wrote:
Klaus wrote:

Wanna try again and switch "Denilson" for "Cannavaro" or "Baresi"? Or "Juan", perhaps?

don't be ridiculous, all else being equal, it is always better for a CB to be big and strong. that's why on average, they're the biggest guys on the pitch. but maybe you know better than everyone else. using exceptions to disprove a rule is such a typical klaus tactic.

They're not exceptions and there's no "tactic" therein. I could go on all day. I just pointed to some of the most obvious examples. Nobody's saying that it's a great idea to field a bunch of dwarves but height is just one aspect of defending. There is a lot more to it, and some attributes usually come with a compromise in size. It all depends on what kind of qualities you want. FIFA made a profile a year or two ago over the ideal modern defender, come think of it. They took a lot of variables and tons of research into account. I'll try to find the link later on. Someone compared Vermaelen to it and found that he was almost spot on in every category.

Djourou isn't equal to either Vermaelen or Koscielny in terms of speed, by the way. Doesn't look as agile either to me. Both are flaws directly linked to size.

Ricky1985 wrote:

Not really meaning performance, more in terms of his ceiling. I mean he can run, turn, twist, jump, is extremely strong, has good timing in everything he does, he can pass, has good touch and composure, and his reading of the game and concentration have improved beyond all recognition this season.

In this League and in terms of central defenders, I can only really think of Kompany that has anything close to such a varied skillset.

Ferdinand, mate. Bugs me to admit it because I feel like punching that hare-lipped motherfucker in the face every time I see him, but he's been one of the most complete defenders in the world for the last decade. Off the top of my head I can only think of a handful of players (Nesta, Campbell, Thuram, Cannavaro, Lucio... are there any others?) that have been consistently better.

I personally don't rate Kompany that much. He makes a lot of mistakes that he gets away with simply because he's big and physical and can outmuscle opponents easily. Looks good in closeups but both his positioning and his defending against running opponents needs significant improvement. He cost City a point yesterday with his clueless defending.

Djourou is similar in a way, actually. He's definitely one of the best defenders in the league on current form but he's made mistakes that have been practically identical to the ones Koscielny has made. They just don't get talked about as much, partly because they've resulted in us conceding less goals I suppose (even though it shouldn't really matter). Above all I think people feel more relaxed with a big physical presence at the back, even though it hurts us in other aspects. For instance, Djourou is the one who's responsible most of the time when we fail an offside trap. I'm not sure why but I think it's at least partly related to speed. He's simply not as quick as Kos or Vermaelen and can't afford not to have a little headstart. Part of the reason is related to positioning too I feel. He does let some balls past that the quicker and more agile Kos in turn has to deal with.

The bottom line is that I rate Djourou a lot more than I rate Kompany, but I think both of them are getting too much praise simply for having a good build. Like any player they need good partners to get the most out of their game. That's why football is a team game after all.

Ferdinand, of course, has everything, but he's finished at the top, and has been for a while. That's why I neglected to mention him.

Djourou doesn't quite have the same acceleration as Koscielny and Vermaelen, and he obviously doesn't turn or twist as quickly, but he's quicker at full-tilt - although that's obviously less important. The upside is he's extremely strong, on the ground and in the air.

I've said much the same thing as you about Djourou, especially in regards to Koscielny, but there's no question his reading of the game and his tactical understanding has improved out of sight since his return to the team. Actually I think you could cover it all by just saying his concentration has improved tenfold and it's improved him as a player dramatically. The fact that in his time in the first-team he's always been 6'4, strong and quick, and yet relatively poor, goes to show how important the mental aspects are to a central defender.

Absolutely. I love the way Djourou's come along this season, don't get me wrong. The way him and Kos are playing right now makes them starting material for a club at this level, and that's big praise. I think both have their work cut out for them if they're going to keep someone like Vermaelen out of the team though. He's still a level above both in my opinion.

Vermaelen's brilliant. Better than both, for me. I'd imagine he's probably done alot of weight training to make the best use of his time off, and he should just be reaching his prime physically now, that bit of extra power will make him even better.

There was a stat floating around right before he got injured this season. Apparently he was the only player in Premier League that didn't misplace a single pass in the first two games. In the next one against Blackburn he misplaced one (when he gave the ball away to some cunt that got a free shot on goal and almost scored), but that was about it. And then came that heinous international break and after that we never saw him again.

I know it's not conclusive evidence for anything (if someone feels like nitpicking), but it kind of sums him up as a player. He's one of the best centrebacks in Europe with the ball at his feet. He just reeks of class.