I reckon Messi's career would have been over a couple of years ago had he played when Maradona did. Maradona was physically a lot more robust than Messi, and I am convinced it helped him to bounce back more than once from the assaults he was subjected to.

There is one thing not mentioned here either. You had to be quite a bit braver playing the way Messi and Maradona are famous for in Maradona's time. Messi can go on his runs knowing that he is quite well protected by the ref and the modern laws of the game. Maradona did the same thing, but knowing he could be on the wrong end of a horrendous tackle at any given time. He very often was too.

Messi's robust as well, but in a different way, he's managed to average 50 appearances a season for the past 7 - 8 years all the while playing consistently at the highest standard. I don't think many players have achieved that in their lives. Consistency may be a boring quality but it's also one of the hardest to master in my opinion.

You are absolutely right. In Messi's case though, injuries have become more regular for him in the last 2-3 years. He is no physical freak like Ronaldo in that sense. Well, he is a physical freak, but not built like a tank.

Defenders made more horrendous tackles back then, but they're smarter now. I'm sure Messi would love his opposition to make more sliding tackles, because when he's past a tackle like that, the defender will never catch him. A sliding tackle is only logical to make when there are no other options left. Not because the referees protect attackers, but because the likely outcome is the defender on the ground, realizing that it's now too late to catch Messi.

I think defenders are generally worse now, because defenders don't know how to tackle these days. That is of course a consequence of the changes in the rule book.

Defenders had the option of timing their tackles immaculately, like Beckenbauer/Bobby Moore, or crude assaults like Gentile without fear of getting sent off.

No way would Messi/Ronaldo be allowed to freely waltz across the pitch with or without the ball without ending up on their arses with the ref playing on. They are, no doubt, great players so would have adapted like Maradona was forced to after this experience but we will never know till we see if Messi/Ronaldo have learnt how to avoid being marked out of games like they both were, this last World Cup!

Seeing how Maradona would adjust to needing to sprint probably 3x times as much every game is much more interesting than seeing how Messi would react to more slide tackles.

You are joking, right?

I agree. Maradona would seriously have needed to increase his fitness levels had he played in this era

Football now is far more demanding on the body

Rex wrote:

You are absolutely right. In Messi's case though, injuries have become more regular for him in the last 2-3 years. He is no physical freak like Ronaldo in that sense. Well, he is a physical freak, but not built like a tank.

Only last year, he's still been racking up 50 apperances a season otherwise.

Bold Tone wrote:

You are joking, right?

Huh? The physical demands of players at the top level nowadays is incomparable to what they were when Maradona played. That way, way, WAY supersedes anything with regards to slide tackling. Even disregarding the game-to-game impact of the players, the increased muscular injury risk for Maradona would way outpace the increased contact injury risk for Messi if they swapped eras.

It's a bit dubious projecting or transposing the greatest players of one era to another in order to promote the idea that a player's greatness is reliant on the unique conditions of the era in which they played.

y va marquer wrote:

It's a bit dubious projecting or transposing the greatest players of one era to another in order to promote the idea that a player's greatness is reliant on the unique conditions of the era in which they played.

I agree wholeheartedly. Everybody is a product of their environment. Footballers are no different. If you were to play that game though, the highest level of the sport is way more physically demanding now than it's ever been.

Diaby KungFu wrote:

Bold Tone wrote:

You are joking, right?

Huh? The physical demands of players at the top level nowadays is incomparable to what they were when Maradona played. That way, way, WAY supersedes anything with regards to slide tackling. Even disregarding the game-to-game impact of the players, the increased muscular injury risk for Maradona would way outpace the increased contact injury risk for Messi if they swapped eras.

That argument is flawed as he would have access to the same fitness coaches and dieticians as the modern players if he played now, not to mention the protection of referees.

Jesse Owens was a top athlete in 1936 and his genes would have allowed him to become a top athlete in 2036 if he was born today.
Maradona was the most naturally skillful footballer of his age who played at the top level nonstop from an early age and was therefore just about as fit as one could get till he started snorting cocaine. He also did this without the help of growth hormones (steroids).

Um, I think I may not have been clear
I think that the true greats of any era would not be less great in a different era.

Your point was very clear to me, first time!

Bold Tone wrote:

Diaby KungFu wrote:

Huh? The physical demands of players at the top level nowadays is incomparable to what they were when Maradona played. That way, way, WAY supersedes anything with regards to slide tackling. Even disregarding the game-to-game impact of the players, the increased muscular injury risk for Maradona would way outpace the increased contact injury risk for Messi if they swapped eras.

That argument is flawed as he would have access to the same fitness coaches and dieticians as the modern players if he played now, not to mention the protection of referees.

Jesse Owens was a top athlete in 1936 and his genes would have allowed him to become a top athlete in 2036 if he was born today.
Maradona was the most naturally skillful footballer of his age who played at the top level nonstop from an early age and was therefore just about as fit as one could get till he started snorting cocaine. He also did this without the help of growth hormones (steroids).

Not sure if this is meant as a comparison to Messi but the latters growth hormone injections were administered in a medical capacity as he suffered from a deficiency in the first place.

Bold Tone wrote:

Your point was very clear to me, first time!

Ah, good

Bold Tone wrote:

Diaby KungFu wrote:

Huh? The physical demands of players at the top level nowadays is incomparable to what they were when Maradona played. That way, way, WAY supersedes anything with regards to slide tackling. Even disregarding the game-to-game impact of the players, the increased muscular injury risk for Maradona would way outpace the increased contact injury risk for Messi if they swapped eras.

Jesse Owens was a top athlete in 1936 and his genes would have allowed him to become a top athlete in 2036 if he was born today.

This argument is fair enough and is certainly defensible. However, the argument you actually seem to be bringing forth is something like "If you transported Usain Bolt back to 1936 then Jesse Owen would obviously beat him" which just doesn't make any sort of sense.

Edit: I understood y va's point too. I think cross-era comparison is silly. It's just that the argument brought forth by Bold Tone seems like blatant "Back in my day, I needed to walk to school uphill both ways" type of fuckery to me.

Didn't mention any guarantees about winning gold medals.
Simply said "top athlete" which i personally would never be even if i was competing with Fred Flintstone!

Ronnie O Sullivan > John parrot

Wait I can't say that - different era

Now we have cleared up the boring stuff, lets enjoy skills!

[size=x-small][font=arial, sans-serif]stcv1995
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Messi made Milner famous.[/font][/size]

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:

Ronnie O Sullivan > John parrot

Wait I can't say that - different era

Yeah, but a similar snooker parallel here would be Alex Higgins vs Ronnie O'Sullivan. My Dad swears blind Higgins was a genius and was the best player he ever saw. I say otherwise and say similar things to what is being said here here; players are more professional, standard is a lot higher, Ronnie's statistically a better player.....but Higgins did some amazing things and with such flair, really stood out in his time, and so my Dad's not budging.

In the end it's impossible to say really. Higgins played when snooker was a different game, as with Maradonna and football, who knows what they each would have done with modern training methods and a more professional approach. Conversely, the standard was unquestionably lower and so what would Ronnie O'Sullivan or Lionel Messi have done in they were playng their respective sports in those eras?

As I said, I think defenders were generally BETTER in Maradona's time at actual defending. Today, it is hardly allowed to tackle, so defenders are generally way worse at it. There are also other characteristics in defenders that are more desirable today such as functional technical level, good on the ball, decent passer and so forth.
Just go back to Adams, Keown, Winterburn, Dixon and Bould; as pure defenders, they were better than most of what we see today, and we had 5 of them at the same time. My argument is that not only were defenders better at defending when Maradona was playing, they also could get away with murder.

In general, I agree with Ev though that it is difficult to compare players from different eras. I hold Messi higher personally because he generally played with lesser team mates and still managed to drag teams to success.

Taylor > Bristoe

Taylor>O'Sullivan

Graham and Sonia?

Sonia >>> Graham

y va marquer wrote:

It's a bit dubious projecting or transposing the greatest players of one era to another in order to promote the idea that a player's greatness is reliant on the unique conditions of the era in which they played.

Or course, rules were different pitches were different even boots and the ball was different, it was almost a different game.

O'sullivan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone else ever

Anyway, looking at Messi vids it's easy to notice his technique is all about efficiency at speed. Nobody else does what he does at 100mph.

Still like Zidane better.

Did anyone ever play nutmeg rush back in school?

banduan wrote:

O'sullivan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone else ever

Anyway, looking at Messi vids it's easy to notice his technique is all about efficiency at speed. Nobody else does what he does at 100mph.

Still like Zidane better.

Here you go.

"Why do you want to sign Zidane when we have Tim Sherwood".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Sherwood

Biggus wrote:

y va marquer wrote:

It's a bit dubious projecting or transposing the greatest players of one era to another in order to promote the idea that a player's greatness is reliant on the unique conditions of the era in which they played.

Or course, rules were different pitches were different even boots and the ball was different, it was almost a different game.

But were Tottenham still shit?

banduan wrote:

O'sullivan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone else ever

Anyway, looking at Messi vids it's easy to notice his technique is all about efficiency at speed. Nobody else does what he does at 100mph.

People use that term almost like an insult. Yeah he's not as flamboyant as Ronaldinho and maybe not as fun to watch but he pisses on him from such a great height it's not even funny, 90 odd goals two years ago and now he's playing basically Xavi's position still scoring at a rate higher than 1 per game.

Best player ever by a huge margin for me and I wouldn't be surprised if we'll never see anyone surpass him. I can already see me being an annoying old cunt telling the young whippersnappers how they don't know shit about football.

Spot on. I'm surprised that people who love Özil for making things look easy say that players like Neymar and Ronaldinho are more fun to watch than Messi.

jones wrote:

banduan wrote:

Anyway, looking at Messi vids it's easy to notice his technique is all about efficiency at speed. Nobody else does what he does at 100mph.

People use that term almost like an insult. 

Yeh.

However I'm not people. I'm an algorithm constructed out of the millions of discarded Game & Watch chips.