General Mirth wrote:

Bold Tone wrote:

That argument is flawed as he would have access to the same fitness coaches and dieticians as the modern players if he played now, not to mention the protection of referees.

Jesse Owens was a top athlete in 1936 and his genes would have allowed him to become a top athlete in 2036 if he was born today.
Maradona was the most naturally skillful footballer of his age who played at the top level nonstop from an early age and was therefore just about as fit as one could get till he started snorting cocaine. He also did this without the help of growth hormones (steroids).

Not sure if this is meant as a comparison to Messi but the latters growth hormone injections were administered in a medical capacity as he suffered from a deficiency in the first place.

Not a suggestion of cheating.

The relevance is because Messi wouldn't have had access to modern medicine if he was playing in the 80's.

Ronnie O Sullivan > John parrot

Wait I can't say that - different era

Now we have cleared up the boring stuff, lets enjoy skills!

[size=x-small][font=arial, sans-serif]stcv1995
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Messi made Milner famous.[/font][/size]

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:

Ronnie O Sullivan > John parrot

Wait I can't say that - different era

Yeah, but a similar snooker parallel here would be Alex Higgins vs Ronnie O'Sullivan. My Dad swears blind Higgins was a genius and was the best player he ever saw. I say otherwise and say similar things to what is being said here here; players are more professional, standard is a lot higher, Ronnie's statistically a better player.....but Higgins did some amazing things and with such flair, really stood out in his time, and so my Dad's not budging.

In the end it's impossible to say really. Higgins played when snooker was a different game, as with Maradonna and football, who knows what they each would have done with modern training methods and a more professional approach. Conversely, the standard was unquestionably lower and so what would Ronnie O'Sullivan or Lionel Messi have done in they were playng their respective sports in those eras?

As I said, I think defenders were generally BETTER in Maradona's time at actual defending. Today, it is hardly allowed to tackle, so defenders are generally way worse at it. There are also other characteristics in defenders that are more desirable today such as functional technical level, good on the ball, decent passer and so forth.
Just go back to Adams, Keown, Winterburn, Dixon and Bould; as pure defenders, they were better than most of what we see today, and we had 5 of them at the same time. My argument is that not only were defenders better at defending when Maradona was playing, they also could get away with murder.

In general, I agree with Ev though that it is difficult to compare players from different eras. I hold Messi higher personally because he generally played with lesser team mates and still managed to drag teams to success.

Taylor > Bristoe

Taylor>O'Sullivan

Graham and Sonia?

Sonia >>> Graham

y va marquer wrote:

It's a bit dubious projecting or transposing the greatest players of one era to another in order to promote the idea that a player's greatness is reliant on the unique conditions of the era in which they played.

Or course, rules were different pitches were different even boots and the ball was different, it was almost a different game.

O'sullivan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone else ever

Anyway, looking at Messi vids it's easy to notice his technique is all about efficiency at speed. Nobody else does what he does at 100mph.

Still like Zidane better.

Did anyone ever play nutmeg rush back in school?

banduan wrote:

O'sullivan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone else ever

Anyway, looking at Messi vids it's easy to notice his technique is all about efficiency at speed. Nobody else does what he does at 100mph.

Still like Zidane better.

Here you go.

"Why do you want to sign Zidane when we have Tim Sherwood".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Sherwood

Biggus wrote:

y va marquer wrote:

It's a bit dubious projecting or transposing the greatest players of one era to another in order to promote the idea that a player's greatness is reliant on the unique conditions of the era in which they played.

Or course, rules were different pitches were different even boots and the ball was different, it was almost a different game.

But were Tottenham still shit?

banduan wrote:

O'sullivan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone else ever

Anyway, looking at Messi vids it's easy to notice his technique is all about efficiency at speed. Nobody else does what he does at 100mph.

People use that term almost like an insult. Yeah he's not as flamboyant as Ronaldinho and maybe not as fun to watch but he pisses on him from such a great height it's not even funny, 90 odd goals two years ago and now he's playing basically Xavi's position still scoring at a rate higher than 1 per game.

Best player ever by a huge margin for me and I wouldn't be surprised if we'll never see anyone surpass him. I can already see me being an annoying old cunt telling the young whippersnappers how they don't know shit about football.

Spot on. I'm surprised that people who love Özil for making things look easy say that players like Neymar and Ronaldinho are more fun to watch than Messi.

jones wrote:

banduan wrote:

Anyway, looking at Messi vids it's easy to notice his technique is all about efficiency at speed. Nobody else does what he does at 100mph.

People use that term almost like an insult. 

Yeh.

However I'm not people. I'm an algorithm constructed out of the millions of discarded Game & Watch chips.

General Mirth wrote:

Biggus wrote:

Or course, rules were different pitches were different even boots and the ball was different, it was almost a different game.

But were Tottenham still shit?

Some people think my views are very fashioned GM, thats because throughout my life the Aristotelian medieval world view of certainty and stability of the cosmos has been sustained by the constant of Spurs shittiness, no Copernican revolution of the heavenly spheres or Einsteinian theory of relativity has budged it.
When times are turbulent and the world seems to shift under our feet we can always rely on this certainty.  

My favourite football memories by a long way. Thank you Inter for the gift!

Thanks for that, Tone.

Haven't watched that comp for a long time. One of my favourites.

What a player!

This is possibly a controversial opinion, but I always thought that Bergkamp became an even better player in the 02-04 years when he was forced deeper and had to focus more on creating.

The answer to the thread title is Bellerin, by the way.

Klaus wrote:

This is possibly a controversial opinion, but I always thought that Bergkamp became an even better player in the 02-04 years when he was forced deeper and had to focus more on creating.

Even with reduced mobility, he remained lethal with Henry, Pires and Ljungberg doing the running so, like you, he never diminished in my eyes.

He went from Henry to Özil gradually. Not a bad feat at all.

Bold Tone wrote:

Klaus wrote:

This is possibly a controversial opinion, but I always thought that Bergkamp became an even better player in the 02-04 years when he was forced deeper and had to focus more on creating.

Even with reduced mobility, he remained lethal with Henry, Pires and Ljungberg doing the running so, like you, he never diminished in my eyes.

Yeah, I think that's the thing - people tend to focus on what he could no longer do instead of on what he actually did. Becoming less mobile really brought out another dimension in him imo.

Can't say I agree. As good as he was after, some of the stuff he was doing in the years before that was just unreal, and he was still doing most of the invincibles era creative stuff anyway.

Klaus wrote:

This is possibly a controversial opinion, but I always thought that Bergkamp became an even better player in the 02-04 years when he was forced deeper and had to focus more on creating.

Not at all Klaus, thats exactly right.

Klaus wrote:

This is possibly a controversial opinion, but I always thought that Bergkamp became an even better player in the 02-04 years when he was forced deeper and had to focus more on creating.

I agree, even though I liked him more as a striker.

Bergkamp was something else at Ajax. He had already cemented himself as top 3 best Dutch players of all time before he had left. At Arsenal, his best season was in Wenger's first double season, but he did develop a great creative side to his game to counteract the decline in mobility. Still a majestic player, but he was scoring goals from another mother at his peak. Some of those goals in Dutch colours and in his first couple of seasons were hard to believe.

I've noticed that when watching Messi play, I consistently shake my head and laugh. He's the only player that I've ever reacted that way to.

Anyone else wants to laugh? 

Everybody does body feints. Nobody does it at split-split-second speed like Messi. He basically reads what you're doing in milliseconds. In fact, he probably knows what you're doing before you do.

Özil does the body feint all the time too. He exclusively fakes right and goes left though.
Generally agree with Bandy though.

Watching Messi on the pitch is a pleasure, nothing less. Clearly something you'd tell your grand children about in a couple of decades.

I don't know...

Okay, so before anyone thinks I'm a Messi hater, I'm not - this goes for Ronaldo as well, and most of the "great" footballers today.

The last players I truly enjoyed watching week in, week out were Ronaldo (el Fenomenon), Ronaldinho. And then Henry. Sometimes Ibrahimovic.

And I think I've realized Why don't I enjoy watching Messi as much. He is too "efficient".

The aforementioned players, and the likes of Maradona, Zidane, heck even bloody Matt Le Tissier, were players who would step onto the football field not just to play, but to entertain. They would stand in front of their defenders with the aim of showing them that they were superior in talent and ability. They would pick opponents and humiliate them effortlessly. Toying with them endlessly, teasing them, frustrating them with outrageous pieces of skill. Playing like they were the best kids in the playground, and they knew it.

It's not just Messi though, football today seems to be too mechanical, too predictable, too professional. I think this is why we all enjoyed that Messi goal so much. It was unexpected. Big game, big skill, big goal. That's what we watch for, isn't it? I don't know if it's just me, but I feel I used to see that kind of thing more often in the previous two decades . Especially from the big clubs, and big players.