Seriously recon george best is up there as one if the worlds greatest

General Mirth wrote:

Not that I've ever seen him play but, in the interest of balance, where would someone like Beckenbauer fit into this debate? It's impossible to compare him with Messi, Maradonna or Zindane but, by all accounts, he was as complete a footballer as any of them and just as inspirational.

Plus he's won every trophy available in football - including all the individual ones.

The modern game is very difficult to compare with the game when Beckenbauer was bossing it. Look at the space he always had! Let's not even mention the speed of the game. Even I am too young to have seen him though, and it is all based on clips and the odd match.

For Ronaldinho to be considered before Zidane he would have had to perform longer. At 28 years old he wasn't any longer good enough for Barcelona.

Clrnc wrote:

Agreed with Ronaldinho. One of my favourite player to watch ever

I love Ronaldinho too, so inventive, so exciting you never knew what he'd do next. I do think Zidane was better though. Just like Messi is better than 'Dinho but he's no where near as fun to watch.

Zidane was better over a longer period of time but I don't think he ever quite hit the heights of 'Dinho in his first couple of seasons at Barcelona. Perhaps people will disagree with that though. Either way they were both absolutely  awe-inspiring players to watch on the field. Total masters of a football. Getting to see Ronaldinho in the flesh during his pomp at Barcelona is something I'll never forget. 

Definitely Messi for me but then Diego was before my time.

With the professionalism required these days though I doubt the latter would have lasted long.

Messi is head and shoulders above those he is compared with. He would be the greatest ever if he stopped now and he could legitimately carry on at the level for 4 more eyes to least. At that point there will be no argument.

otfgoon wrote:

Definitely Messi for me but then Diego was before my time.

With the professionalism required these days though I doubt the latter would have lasted long.

Or, being influenced by his surroundings, how good could he have become? :gape:

I'm gonna go with Messi.

Check out the tackles he has to navigate around the 3 min mark.
For this reason i go with Maradona, just!

Messi is easily the best I've ever seen. Too young for Maradona.

Also, for the Zizou v 'Dinho debate, Henry was better than both.

Bold Tone wrote:

Check out the tackles he has to navigate around the 3 min mark.
For this reason i go with Maradona, just!

It's terrible defending though, I reckon it's harder to beat defenders who stay on their feet and don't just dive in like maniacs.

There's a guy I play 6 a side against who used to beat me every single time, was humiliating considering he's like 12 years older than me. Realised that when you don't dive in he can't go anywhere, just follow him around until he get's desperate. Similar principle.

It's funny no one has mentioned Pele yet.

Well I have now, Pele.

You're probably the only one on this forum to have seen all 3 play

otfgoon wrote:

Bold Tone wrote:

Check out the tackles he has to navigate around the 3 min mark.
For this reason i go with Maradona, just!

It's terrible defending though, I reckon it's harder to beat defenders who stay on their feet and don't just dive in like maniacs.

There's a guy I play 6 a side against who used to beat me every single time, was humiliating considering he's like 12 years older than me. Realised that when you don't dive in he can't go anywhere, just follow him around until he get's desperate. Similar principle.

In Maradona's era, being scythed down was a normal part of the game.
Messi, by contrast, can dance through defenders who have to make sure they do not touch him.
The contrast is clear in the videos.

Defenders tackle less like that nowadays not just because they are not supposed to scythe attackers down, but because there are more effective ways to get the ball.

Bold Tone wrote:

otfgoon wrote:

It's terrible defending though, I reckon it's harder to beat defenders who stay on their feet and don't just dive in like maniacs.

There's a guy I play 6 a side against who used to beat me every single time, was humiliating considering he's like 12 years older than me. Realised that when you don't dive in he can't go anywhere, just follow him around until he get's desperate. Similar principle.

In Maradona's era, being scythed down was a normal part of the game.
Messi, by contrast, can dance through defenders who have to make sure they do not touch him.
The contrast is clear in the videos.

You're missing the point. Being scythed down just means a larger risk of getting injured, but the likes of Messi and Maradona thrive on players commuting themselves and making said players look like mugs. 

As Quincy said, it's not the threat of a yellow or red that stops players from diving in, it's because it's bad defending too.

That being said, I didn't see many tackles going in when he scored that goal against England, just Peter Reid following him slowly a couple of paces behind..

"Paul Parker, rated as one of the best full backs that Alex Ferguson ever managed has also spoken about this worrying turn of events, he said: "Everything, now is about giving advantage to the attackers but why? Defending is an art. Shouldn't there be help for defenders as well?"
http://premierleaguereport.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/fifa-out-to-ban-slide-tackle.html

Serious foul play

A tackle from behind is punishable with a red card

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2262752/Sam-Allardyce-Inept-rules-blame-ruining-tackling.html
http://www.bettersoccercoaching.com/soccerforum/Topic26-4-1.aspx
Football fouls are any actions that use excessive force and endangers the safety of another player. It is referee who decides whether a player has committed serious foul play. Challenges from the front or side which the referee sees as dangerous will be punished with a red card.

Kicking, tripping, holding, charging, striking, pushing an opponent, or pulling his jersey are normally punishable by a yellow card but the referee can increase the punishment to red card. A tackle with the shoe studs up are almost always considered grave foul play. Tackling an opponent from behind automatically gets a red card.
http://www.football-bible.com/soccer-info/soccer-red-card.html

Messi's robust as well, but in a different way, he's managed to average 50 appearances a season for the past 7 - 8 years all the while playing consistently at the highest standard. I don't think many players have achieved that in their lives. Consistency may be a boring quality but it's also one of the hardest to master in my opinion.

You are absolutely right. In Messi's case though, injuries have become more regular for him in the last 2-3 years. He is no physical freak like Ronaldo in that sense. Well, he is a physical freak, but not built like a tank.

Defenders made more horrendous tackles back then, but they're smarter now. I'm sure Messi would love his opposition to make more sliding tackles, because when he's past a tackle like that, the defender will never catch him. A sliding tackle is only logical to make when there are no other options left. Not because the referees protect attackers, but because the likely outcome is the defender on the ground, realizing that it's now too late to catch Messi.

I think defenders are generally worse now, because defenders don't know how to tackle these days. That is of course a consequence of the changes in the rule book.

Defenders had the option of timing their tackles immaculately, like Beckenbauer/Bobby Moore, or crude assaults like Gentile without fear of getting sent off.

No way would Messi/Ronaldo be allowed to freely waltz across the pitch with or without the ball without ending up on their arses with the ref playing on. They are, no doubt, great players so would have adapted like Maradona was forced to after this experience but we will never know till we see if Messi/Ronaldo have learnt how to avoid being marked out of games like they both were, this last World Cup!

Seeing how Maradona would adjust to needing to sprint probably 3x times as much every game is much more interesting than seeing how Messi would react to more slide tackles.

You are joking, right?

I agree. Maradona would seriously have needed to increase his fitness levels had he played in this era

Football now is far more demanding on the body

Rex wrote:

You are absolutely right. In Messi's case though, injuries have become more regular for him in the last 2-3 years. He is no physical freak like Ronaldo in that sense. Well, he is a physical freak, but not built like a tank.

Only last year, he's still been racking up 50 apperances a season otherwise.

Bold Tone wrote:

You are joking, right?

Huh? The physical demands of players at the top level nowadays is incomparable to what they were when Maradona played. That way, way, WAY supersedes anything with regards to slide tackling. Even disregarding the game-to-game impact of the players, the increased muscular injury risk for Maradona would way outpace the increased contact injury risk for Messi if they swapped eras.

It's a bit dubious projecting or transposing the greatest players of one era to another in order to promote the idea that a player's greatness is reliant on the unique conditions of the era in which they played.

y va marquer wrote:

It's a bit dubious projecting or transposing the greatest players of one era to another in order to promote the idea that a player's greatness is reliant on the unique conditions of the era in which they played.

I agree wholeheartedly. Everybody is a product of their environment. Footballers are no different. If you were to play that game though, the highest level of the sport is way more physically demanding now than it's ever been.

Diaby KungFu wrote:

Bold Tone wrote:

You are joking, right?

Huh? The physical demands of players at the top level nowadays is incomparable to what they were when Maradona played. That way, way, WAY supersedes anything with regards to slide tackling. Even disregarding the game-to-game impact of the players, the increased muscular injury risk for Maradona would way outpace the increased contact injury risk for Messi if they swapped eras.

That argument is flawed as he would have access to the same fitness coaches and dieticians as the modern players if he played now, not to mention the protection of referees.

Jesse Owens was a top athlete in 1936 and his genes would have allowed him to become a top athlete in 2036 if he was born today.
Maradona was the most naturally skillful footballer of his age who played at the top level nonstop from an early age and was therefore just about as fit as one could get till he started snorting cocaine. He also did this without the help of growth hormones (steroids).

Um, I think I may not have been clear
I think that the true greats of any era would not be less great in a different era.

Your point was very clear to me, first time!

Bold Tone wrote:

Diaby KungFu wrote:

Huh? The physical demands of players at the top level nowadays is incomparable to what they were when Maradona played. That way, way, WAY supersedes anything with regards to slide tackling. Even disregarding the game-to-game impact of the players, the increased muscular injury risk for Maradona would way outpace the increased contact injury risk for Messi if they swapped eras.

That argument is flawed as he would have access to the same fitness coaches and dieticians as the modern players if he played now, not to mention the protection of referees.

Jesse Owens was a top athlete in 1936 and his genes would have allowed him to become a top athlete in 2036 if he was born today.
Maradona was the most naturally skillful footballer of his age who played at the top level nonstop from an early age and was therefore just about as fit as one could get till he started snorting cocaine. He also did this without the help of growth hormones (steroids).

Not sure if this is meant as a comparison to Messi but the latters growth hormone injections were administered in a medical capacity as he suffered from a deficiency in the first place.

Bold Tone wrote:

Your point was very clear to me, first time!

Ah, good

Bold Tone wrote:

Diaby KungFu wrote:

Huh? The physical demands of players at the top level nowadays is incomparable to what they were when Maradona played. That way, way, WAY supersedes anything with regards to slide tackling. Even disregarding the game-to-game impact of the players, the increased muscular injury risk for Maradona would way outpace the increased contact injury risk for Messi if they swapped eras.

Jesse Owens was a top athlete in 1936 and his genes would have allowed him to become a top athlete in 2036 if he was born today.

This argument is fair enough and is certainly defensible. However, the argument you actually seem to be bringing forth is something like "If you transported Usain Bolt back to 1936 then Jesse Owen would obviously beat him" which just doesn't make any sort of sense.

Edit: I understood y va's point too. I think cross-era comparison is silly. It's just that the argument brought forth by Bold Tone seems like blatant "Back in my day, I needed to walk to school uphill both ways" type of fuckery to me.

Didn't mention any guarantees about winning gold medals.
Simply said "top athlete" which i personally would never be even if i was competing with Fred Flintstone!