the reality is that in a more egalitarian era with less globalization, the World Cup easily was the best tournament. in the pre-Champions League era, big clubs were largely composed of domestic players. Even in England, teams were mainly made up of Englishmen, a couple of Scots and some Irish stars. Thus, when a national team was composed, it was almost certain to be better than any single club team in its league. And this would be true for most national teams. Thus, the World Cup really was the height of football.

In this awful post Champions League reality, however, this is not the case. The concentration of talent at 6 or 7 clubs means that these teams are far superior what any national team can produce naturally. In this era, it's about what you can do in the big leagues and the Champions League over many more games than what transpires in a summer World Cup. Holding onto the notion that the World Cup is the pinnacle is nothing more than romance.

mdgoonah41 wrote:

if messi were from austria or serbia, would that preclude him from being called the best player ever because his national team had almost no chance of ever winning the world cup?

They would actually have a much better chance of getting to the latter stages of the world cup.

Because that's how good Messi is. Those teams are hardly minnows anyway, easily same standard as Bosnia, Switzerland etc if not better.

Could argue that neither messi nor ronaldo are the best in the world currently as neither have won a World Cup

Maybe ozil is?!

Clrnc wrote:

Because that's how good Messi is. Those teams are hardly minnows anyway, easily same standard as Bosnia, Switzerland etc if not better.

but its the ultimate team game. as good as he is, if he played for a smaller country that did not have quality all over the pitch, teams would just swarm him more than they do now, and his impact would be minimized.

point being, its a team game. he had a great world cup last summer and got very little support. its not his fault argentina didn't win the WC and it shouldn't be a mark against him.

Reckon Zidane might win best ten minute highlights reel of all time.

Burnwinter™ wrote:

Reckon Zidane might win best ten minute highlights reel of all time.

I'd throw in Ronaldinho in that discussion.

Then again, Zidane was so easy on the eye. The part at 1:18 might be my favourite piece of skill from him.

lol yep.

Seriously though, despite Bergkamp being my favourite at the time, I could not stop watching Zidane play. Bloke plays like he owned the ball and you don't deserve to have it.

True that. I was watching this earlier though

I ninja'd you Burnsy, sorry bout that. That is one of the best footballing vids on YouTube.

Is the general consensus here that Zidane is the best player in the era after Maradona and before the Messi/Cristiano Ronaldo Ball'on dor streak?

Ronaldinho was better.

Agreed with Ronaldinho. One of my favourite player to watch ever

No love for Kaka and Ronaldo9?

Ronaldo better than both.

Not that I've ever seen him play but, in the interest of balance, where would someone like Beckenbauer fit into this debate? It's impossible to compare him with Messi, Maradonna or Zindane but, by all accounts, he was as complete a footballer as any of them and just as inspirational.

Plus he's won every trophy available in football - including all the individual ones.

World Cup and Euro winning captain, three straight European Cups with Munich, over a hundred caps for one of the strongest Germany sides ever, just by his accomplishments alone you can safely rate him amongst the best ever. By all accounts he was also a very technical, ball playing defender ahead of his time.

I don't think just because you're too young to have seen Beckenbauer play (so am I) you're not allowed to mention him in debates like this, same goes for Pelé or Cruyff for that matter.

Seriously recon george best is up there as one if the worlds greatest

General Mirth wrote:

Not that I've ever seen him play but, in the interest of balance, where would someone like Beckenbauer fit into this debate? It's impossible to compare him with Messi, Maradonna or Zindane but, by all accounts, he was as complete a footballer as any of them and just as inspirational.

Plus he's won every trophy available in football - including all the individual ones.

The modern game is very difficult to compare with the game when Beckenbauer was bossing it. Look at the space he always had! Let's not even mention the speed of the game. Even I am too young to have seen him though, and it is all based on clips and the odd match.

For Ronaldinho to be considered before Zidane he would have had to perform longer. At 28 years old he wasn't any longer good enough for Barcelona.

Clrnc wrote:

Agreed with Ronaldinho. One of my favourite player to watch ever

I love Ronaldinho too, so inventive, so exciting you never knew what he'd do next. I do think Zidane was better though. Just like Messi is better than 'Dinho but he's no where near as fun to watch.

Zidane was better over a longer period of time but I don't think he ever quite hit the heights of 'Dinho in his first couple of seasons at Barcelona. Perhaps people will disagree with that though. Either way they were both absolutely  awe-inspiring players to watch on the field. Total masters of a football. Getting to see Ronaldinho in the flesh during his pomp at Barcelona is something I'll never forget. 

Definitely Messi for me but then Diego was before my time.

With the professionalism required these days though I doubt the latter would have lasted long.

Messi is head and shoulders above those he is compared with. He would be the greatest ever if he stopped now and he could legitimately carry on at the level for 4 more eyes to least. At that point there will be no argument.

otfgoon wrote:

Definitely Messi for me but then Diego was before my time.

With the professionalism required these days though I doubt the latter would have lasted long.

Or, being influenced by his surroundings, how good could he have become? :gape:

Check out the tackles he has to navigate around the 3 min mark.
For this reason i go with Maradona, just!

Messi is easily the best I've ever seen. Too young for Maradona.

Also, for the Zizou v 'Dinho debate, Henry was better than both.

Bold Tone wrote:

Check out the tackles he has to navigate around the 3 min mark.
For this reason i go with Maradona, just!

It's terrible defending though, I reckon it's harder to beat defenders who stay on their feet and don't just dive in like maniacs.

There's a guy I play 6 a side against who used to beat me every single time, was humiliating considering he's like 12 years older than me. Realised that when you don't dive in he can't go anywhere, just follow him around until he get's desperate. Similar principle.

It's funny no one has mentioned Pele yet.

Well I have now, Pele.

You're probably the only one on this forum to have seen all 3 play 🙂

otfgoon wrote:
Bold Tone wrote:

Check out the tackles he has to navigate around the 3 min mark.
For this reason i go with Maradona, just!

It's terrible defending though, I reckon it's harder to beat defenders who stay on their feet and don't just dive in like maniacs.

There's a guy I play 6 a side against who used to beat me every single time, was humiliating considering he's like 12 years older than me. Realised that when you don't dive in he can't go anywhere, just follow him around until he get's desperate. Similar principle.

In Maradona's era, being scythed down was a normal part of the game.
Messi, by contrast, can dance through defenders who have to make sure they do not touch him.
The contrast is clear in the videos.

Defenders tackle less like that nowadays not just because they are not supposed to scythe attackers down, but because there are more effective ways to get the ball.

Bold Tone wrote:
otfgoon wrote:

It's terrible defending though, I reckon it's harder to beat defenders who stay on their feet and don't just dive in like maniacs.

There's a guy I play 6 a side against who used to beat me every single time, was humiliating considering he's like 12 years older than me. Realised that when you don't dive in he can't go anywhere, just follow him around until he get's desperate. Similar principle.

In Maradona's era, being scythed down was a normal part of the game.
Messi, by contrast, can dance through defenders who have to make sure they do not touch him.
The contrast is clear in the videos.

You're missing the point. Being scythed down just means a larger risk of getting injured, but the likes of Messi and Maradona thrive on players commuting themselves and making said players look like mugs. 

As Quincy said, it's not the threat of a yellow or red that stops players from diving in, it's because it's bad defending too.

That being said, I didn't see many tackles going in when he scored that goal against England, just Peter Reid following him slowly a couple of paces behind..

"Paul Parker, rated as one of the best full backs that Alex Ferguson ever managed has also spoken about this worrying turn of events, he said: "Everything, now is about giving advantage to the attackers but why? Defending is an art. Shouldn't there be help for defenders as well?"
http://premierleaguereport.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/fifa-out-to-ban-slide-tackle.html

Serious foul play

A tackle from behind is punishable with a red card

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2262752/Sam-Allardyce-Inept-rules-blame-ruining-tackling.html
http://www.bettersoccercoaching.com/soccerforum/Topic26-4-1.aspx
Football fouls are any actions that use excessive force and endangers the safety of another player. It is referee who decides whether a player has committed serious foul play. Challenges from the front or side which the referee sees as dangerous will be punished with a red card.

Kicking, tripping, holding, charging, striking, pushing an opponent, or pulling his jersey are normally punishable by a yellow card but the referee can increase the punishment to red card. A tackle with the shoe studs up are almost always considered grave foul play. Tackling an opponent from behind automatically gets a red card.
http://www.football-bible.com/soccer-info/soccer-red-card.html