No. But the gulf in quality between those trios is so large that the comparison doesn't make any sense.

@Burns I reckon City are going to spend serious money next summer. They needed a handful of players regardless of Guardiola's wishes because of their aging full backs etc but with Guardiola I can see an even bigger clearout.

Of course it makes sense - team's-best-players-in-form-carry-team-to-success shock.

It doesn't. Barcelona were without Messi for several weeks and didn't drop any points, now they're missing Neymar instead and they still dominate their opposition. If the same happened to Martinez or Ribéry Bayern wouldn't have been able to replace them as easily.

Well we don't know as that never happened.

I know you hate Bayern, mate and I know you get where I'm coming from All good.

Those were basically some of my arguments, but because I know how Jones feels about Bayern I just decided to not go there.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

Biggus wrote:

I know that neither Crynaldo nor Messi did it on the world stage.

Nice picture but it is not a substitute for a proper answer.

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Biggus wrote:

I know that neither Crynaldo nor Messi did it on the world stage.

Doesn't matter. The Champions league is a stronger tournament than the World Cup. 

I completely agree, but it does matter.
Messi and CRonaldo play for teams that have dominated the CL very strong teams that contain many good players, but internationally they play in teams that have sometimes been mediocre and have failed to impress, other great players of the past have similarly played in mediocre international teams but dragged them to victory anyway, to my knowledge no individual has won the CL almost singlehandedly, it requires more than one great player.
Messi and CRonaldo are fine players and as they are current people will naturally be familiar with them, but to dismiss great players from the past without (in many cases) knowing too much about them and the context they played in is not very clever.

"Other great players of the past have similarly played in mediocre international teams but dragged them to victory anyway..."

Like who, Biggus?

Maradona in 86 Zidane in 98 and you could add Cruyff to the final in 74 too.
Each one of these players carried the immense hopes of entire countries the pressure must have been huge, as I said I personally experienced the expectations Zidane was under in 98.

I actually backed Messi to lead Argentina to glory in Brazil 14 but he wasn't fully fit so missed his chance.

Cruyff carried a mediocre team?

What about the likes of Van Hanegem, Neeskens, Arie Haan, Piet Keizer?

Same goes for the France '98 team which had some of the best defensive players of its generation.

SimplyThePest wrote:

Well we don't know as that never happened.

Yes it happened, in 2011/2012 Martinez was yet to move to Bayern and they finished 2nd in the CL, cup and league.

I don't like Bayern but that doesn't mean that I can't assess their strength accurately, the accusation makes even less sense seeing how I'm comparing two Bayern teams to each other.

I'd have Heyncke's Bayern over the current Bayern every day. Not only did they play what I think is more entertaining football, they also crushed everything in their way, not least the Barcelona side which, incidentally, played like Bayern of today.

I don't agree with Biggus line of reasoning with the international performance criteria, but I have to say France 98 wasn't as good as some might think. Back then the French Public was very worried with performance in the build up to the world cup and results hasn't set the world alight. Their manager's job wasn't secure even weeks before the tournament.

I wouldn't say their team is average, but it certainly has more of future than current stars. Hardly anyone of them was at their peak.

They still had Thuram, Blanc, Desailly, Deschamps and Vieira, all formidable players at the time. Zidane certainly didn't do it all alone.

Gedankenexperiment: drop Messi into Zidane's slot for France 98. They still win that tournament I reckon.

Rex wrote:

I'd have Heyncke's Bayern over the current Bayern every day. Not only did they play what I think is more entertaining football, they also crushed everything in their way, not least the Barcelona side which, incidentally, played like Bayern of today.

Yeah, that is my favourite non-Arsenal team.

Relevant - http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/35744036

You guys are small time, show some passion like those guys ffs.

Cherchez la femme, I'd say.

Gurgen wrote:

They still had Thuram, Blanc, Desailly, Deschamps and Vieira, all formidable players at the time. Zidane certainly didn't do it all alone.

Vieira hardly had any minutes in the tournament. Only started in 1 match and made just 1 further sub app.

That's true, I forgot they barely used their best midfielder. Also played Stéphane Guivarc'h in the final

Both Vieira and Henry were still too young.
They had Christophe Dugarry upfront ffs.

You mean 3. He was no where in 2006.

That's not how it works, Sicario. He started four games, came on in two more, got a goal and an assist. That he's won 4 of the last 10 CLs isn't an opinion, but a fact.

How much tangible difference did he actually make to that CL side in 2006? Does anyone remember what he did in that campaign? If Messi did not feature at all that year would Barcs still have won the CL? Let's not give total credit for something he didn't even play a major part in.

It's like saying Wilshere won us the FA cup in 2015.

First of all, Wilshere played one match. Second, he didn't say Messi won them the Champions League. He said that Messi has won the Champions League four times, which is still a fact. You both changed the wording and used someone who played six times fewer matches than Messi as an example. Poor attempt at exaggeration to rationalize what you're saying.

If we win the FA cup this year Ospina will have won it, that does not mean "he's won us the FA cup". Big difference.

Even Djimi Traore has won the CL.

Jus' sayin'

Sicario wrote:

How much tangible difference did he actually make to that CL side in 2006? Does anyone remember what he did in that campaign? If Messi did not feature at all that year would Barcs still have won the CL? Let's not give total credit for something he didn't even play a major part in.

It's like saying Wilshere won us the FA cup in 2015.

Didn't he destroy Chelsea that year?

Clrnc wrote:

Gurgen wrote:

They still had Thuram, Blanc, Desailly, Deschamps and Vieira, all formidable players at the time. Zidane certainly didn't do it all alone.

Vieira hardly had any minutes in the tournament. Only started in 1 match and made just 1 further sub app.

Most of those players mentioned actually carried Zidane in that tournament. He only showed up in the final but was living up to his bottler tag before that (and was widely criticised).

About 20 years later, it's now being said he carried the French team - hilarious!

Players like Djorkaeff, Karembeu  (had a top season with Madrid) are hardly mentioned despite playing better than Zidane in the tournament.

You are right about the contribution of the other players being forgotten.
You mention offensive players but i think the defensive capabilities of that team are what carried them to glory.
Even then i still think France only won it because Ronaldo suffered that panic attack or whatever it was that turned him into a shell.
Good example of the collective being better than the individual.
Maradona is the only player, i think, won his country the WC.
Also i know he played for the enemy but George Best was right up there.

I understand why the wide masses have such an interest in the WC but surely for people who have more than a casual fleeting interest in football they'd realise that it's hardly the indicator for quality? If Maradona was born a couple hundred kilometers to the North or West in Paraguay or Chile he'd have never got close to win the WC.

Zidane was one of my heroes back in the day but I reckon Ronaldo is the one I'd list straight after Messi on my all time list, such a shame that he hit his peak at 21 because of injuries.

Zidane is still one of my favourite players and i followed him closely since his time at Juve but no way was he better than real Ron in his prime.
There is, however, something about that lethargic elegance that makes the difficult seem so simple that makes me like him, Cruyff, Riquelme, Hagi, Ozil and even our very own Wilshere or Leicester's Mahrez. Same reason i liked Le Tissier and even "the magic man" as he was the contrast in that team.
They may not be the most effective players but i simply enjoyed/enjoy watching them.

Any excuse to quote Jorge Valdano on Riquelme:
"If we have to travel from point A to point B, everyone would take the six-lane highway and get there as quickly as possible. Everyone, except Riquelme. He would would choose the winding mountain road, that takes six hours, but that fills your eyes with scenes of beautiful landscapes."

Yeah I understand where you're coming from. The one player in that vein I'd list in front of everyone of that list would be Iniesta, he's the epitome of that "lethargic elegance" imo.

"Kinetic economy"

I saw Zidane take a high ball moving fast on the tip of his toe and kill it dead and for once I was stuck for words.

What about when you saw this

Le me in the Best player ever thread when a wild Danny Welbeck video appears.

Fuck that was a great moment though. Back when we could still hope.

Welbnaldo. Welbadona. Riquwelbme. Le Welbzier.

What the hell is Matthew fucking LeTissier doing in a conversation about the greats?!

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

What about when you saw this

Bold Tone wrote:

Any excuse to quote Jorge Valdano on Riquelme:
"If we have to travel from point A to point B, everyone would take the six-lane highway and get there as quickly as possible. Everyone, except Riquelme. He would would choose the winding mountain road, that takes six hours, but that fills your eyes with scenes of beautiful landscapes."

A beautiful quote - thanks!