No. But the gulf in quality between those trios is so large that the comparison doesn't make any sense.

@Burns I reckon City are going to spend serious money next summer. They needed a handful of players regardless of Guardiola's wishes because of their aging full backs etc but with Guardiola I can see an even bigger clearout.

Of course it makes sense - team's-best-players-in-form-carry-team-to-success shock.

It doesn't. Barcelona were without Messi for several weeks and didn't drop any points, now they're missing Neymar instead and they still dominate their opposition. If the same happened to Martinez or Ribéry Bayern wouldn't have been able to replace them as easily.

Well we don't know as that never happened.

I know you hate Bayern, mate and I know you get where I'm coming from 🙂 All good.

Those were basically some of my arguments, but because I know how Jones feels about Bayern I just decided to not go there. 🙂

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Biggus wrote:

I know that neither Crynaldo nor Messi did it on the world stage.

Nice picture but it is not a substitute for a proper answer.

Kel Varnsen wrote:
Biggus wrote:

I know that neither Crynaldo nor Messi did it on the world stage.

Doesn't matter. The Champions league is a stronger tournament than the World Cup. 

I completely agree, but it does matter.
Messi and CRonaldo play for teams that have dominated the CL very strong teams that contain many good players, but internationally they play in teams that have sometimes been mediocre and have failed to impress, other great players of the past have similarly played in mediocre international teams but dragged them to victory anyway, to my knowledge no individual has won the CL almost singlehandedly, it requires more than one great player.
Messi and CRonaldo are fine players and as they are current people will naturally be familiar with them, but to dismiss great players from the past without (in many cases) knowing too much about them and the context they played in is not very clever.

"Other great players of the past have similarly played in mediocre international teams but dragged them to victory anyway..."

Like who, Biggus?

Maradona in 86 Zidane in 98 and you could add Cruyff to the final in 74 too.
Each one of these players carried the immense hopes of entire countries the pressure must have been huge, as I said I personally experienced the expectations Zidane was under in 98.

I actually backed Messi to lead Argentina to glory in Brazil 14 but he wasn't fully fit so missed his chance.

Cruyff carried a mediocre team? 😆

What about the likes of Van Hanegem, Neeskens, Arie Haan, Piet Keizer?

Same goes for the France '98 team which had some of the best defensive players of its generation.

SimplyThePest wrote:

Well we don't know as that never happened.

Yes it happened, in 2011/2012 Martinez was yet to move to Bayern and they finished 2nd in the CL, cup and league.

I don't like Bayern but that doesn't mean that I can't assess their strength accurately, the accusation makes even less sense seeing how I'm comparing two Bayern teams to each other.

I'd have Heyncke's Bayern over the current Bayern every day. Not only did they play what I think is more entertaining football, they also crushed everything in their way, not least the Barcelona side which, incidentally, played like Bayern of today.

I don't agree with Biggus line of reasoning with the international performance criteria, but I have to say France 98 wasn't as good as some might think. Back then the French Public was very worried with performance in the build up to the world cup and results hasn't set the world alight. Their manager's job wasn't secure even weeks before the tournament.

I wouldn't say their team is average, but it certainly has more of future than current stars. Hardly anyone of them was at their peak.

They still had Thuram, Blanc, Desailly, Deschamps and Vieira, all formidable players at the time. Zidane certainly didn't do it all alone.

Gedankenexperiment: drop Messi into Zidane's slot for France 98. They still win that tournament I reckon.

Rex wrote:

I'd have Heyncke's Bayern over the current Bayern every day. Not only did they play what I think is more entertaining football, they also crushed everything in their way, not least the Barcelona side which, incidentally, played like Bayern of today.

Yeah, that is my favourite non-Arsenal team.

Gurgen wrote:

They still had Thuram, Blanc, Desailly, Deschamps and Vieira, all formidable players at the time. Zidane certainly didn't do it all alone.

Vieira hardly had any minutes in the tournament. Only started in 1 match and made just 1 further sub app.

That's true, I forgot they barely used their best midfielder. Also played Stéphane Guivarc'h in the final 😆

Both Vieira and Henry were still too young.
They had Christophe Dugarry upfront ffs.