Toni Kroos played quite a bit as the deepest midfielder for Bayern. I think he is a brilliant player myself. He is truly a central mid who does it all.

I think it is also easy to say that we don't need a dedicated defensive midfielder and then compare us to Bayern, Barcelona, Real Madrid. I think it is important to remember that we are NOT in a position where we are even close to matching them regarding pool of talented players. To me, it looks utterly ridiculous to think we will get closer to those teams by trying to copy what they do. Dortmund briefly got to the top because they played the game differently, and the same is true for Atletico Madrid IMO.

Rex wrote:

Toni Kroos played quite a bit as the deepest midfielder for Bayern. I think he is a brilliant player myself. He is truly a central mid who does it all.

I think it is also easy to say that we don't need a dedicated defensive midfielder and then compare us to Bayern, Barcelona, Real Madrid. I think it is important to remember that we are NOT in a position where we are even close to matching them regarding pool of talented players. To me, it looks utterly ridiculous to think we will get closer to those teams by trying to copy what they do. Dortmund briefly got to the top because they played the game differently, and the same is true for Atletico Madrid IMO.

Er, except tackle....

I do agree with your second paragraph though. You can't set up our team to play the same way as Madrid and Barca when they have £500m worth of attackers playing up front for them.

For what it's worth, Kroos was a huge part in Madrid's loss last night. Did fuck all to stop Morata scoring, and also strolled back for the Marchisio chance.

innervisionscm wrote:

qs! wrote:

In what world have Arteta and Carrick been ridiculed for years? If anything United fans have overrate Carrick and Arteta has been one of the most respected players in the league for nearly 10 years.

You're joking about Arteta right? Most Arsenal fans hated him and nobody else in England pays any attention to him. People couldn't stop talking about Flamini last season, lol.

Exactly, I remember a lot of jokers in the media attributing our good form to Flamini, "see, we have always said they needed a defensive midfielder", completely ignoring the fact the solidity of the Arteta-Ramsey partnership was one of the main reasons we finished in the top 4 the previous season. 

Can you see a non-footballer like Scott fucking Parker winning the player of the year awards in Spain for example?  

BTW @qs!, Arteta was highly rated when he played an attacking role for Everton but since he joined us fans and pundits have always pinpointed him as the guy that needed replacing ("he's not what they need, he isn't a DM"). Mind you, this was when Arteta was probably the guy holding our team together.

Oh yeah Carrick has always been ridiculed on radio phone-ins, football forums etc. He was generally seen as weak and a sideways passer. Fans remember him getting out-muscled for the Bayern goal for example and conclude he's weak defensively. Says it all that the likes of Scott Parker were getting picked ahead of him for England without anyone batting an eye lid. 

Ricky1985 wrote:

Rex wrote:

Toni Kroos played quite a bit as the deepest midfielder for Bayern. I think he is a brilliant player myself. He is truly a central mid who does it all.

I think it is also easy to say that we don't need a dedicated defensive midfielder and then compare us to Bayern, Barcelona, Real Madrid. I think it is important to remember that we are NOT in a position where we are even close to matching them regarding pool of talented players. To me, it looks utterly ridiculous to think we will get closer to those teams by trying to copy what they do. Dortmund briefly got to the top because they played the game differently, and the same is true for Atletico Madrid IMO.

Er, except tackle....

I do agree with your second paragraph though. You can't set up our team to play the same way as Madrid and Barca when they have  £500m worth of attackers playing up front for them.

How many millions did Juve spend? What about Atletico Madrid?

Sahin-Gundogan played a huge role in getting Dortmund out of trouble this season, did they spend  £500m on forwards to enable them to set up that way?

Btw @[deleted], Schweinsteiger played the deepest role for Bayern, not Kroos. Even Schweinsteiger was a winger till his mid twenties.

We buy £40m players now, Atleti and Dortmund can't do that. We absolutely have the resources to play the football that Wenger wants to play.

All the best players in Italy want to play for Juventus. That puts them in a special position. Juventus also play in a way in midfield that pretty much no other team does; they have a player who is a God on the ball closest to their CBs, but at the same time does very little defensively. They compensate by having excellent mobile, defensively strong players like Pogba, Marchisio and Vidal around Pirlo though, and they really play without midfielders wide.

As I said, Kroos has played quite a bit for Bayern in the same role as he now has for Real Madrid. All true too.

It's a red herring talking about Sahin and Gundogan as the base of a midfield for Dortmund this season too. Bender has started 15 games in the league, and Kehl has started 18. The truth is that Gundogan has almost always played with a defensive midfielder, and that is a fact.

Bender is more like Ramsey, pressing higher up the pitch, only not half as talented. Gündogan and Sahin were definitely the deepest midfielders who were running things.

Except in those 18 league games Kehl started then.

Rex wrote:

Except in those 18 league games Kehl started then.

Kehl is just a scarecrow; an old relic who has been in and out of the team because both Sahin and Gündogan have been injured a lot, often at the same time.

Oh, I agree with that. It's just that Gundogan has always played with partners who are a lot better than him defensively. Sahin is better than Gundogan defensively too btw. People here seem to think that Gundogan would waltz into our team and take the spot Coquelin has though. Even in the best of scenarios a midfield with Gundogan at the base and Özil at 10 would be over run IMO. Gundogan along with Ramsey/Cazorla/Wilshere and Özil at 10 is not something I'd ever back to be a title winning midfield, considering the rest of the players in our squad.

Marcos Senna was miles better than Gundogan defensively IMO.

Comparing us to real or barca is crazy, anyway barca press much better than us, so unless you can the personnel then we should change the coach.

We should be striving for balance, before talking about Europe, let us try to win the PL no?

Defence is a mindset, but if the coach can't get the whole of the team to buy in, then you need to have a few individuals who have that mind set.

If all we need to do is pass our way out of trouble, why not go with Cazorla and Ramsey at the base, or wilshere? If we put that out we will get overrun with no push back.

Juve, atletico, barca (busquets is far more defensive minded than any one of our midfielders bar coquelin), Chelsea, bayern etc all play with defensive midfielders, what makes us so different?

Strong defence, dominating midfield, special attack, let us try to get all these things. Balance, as simple as that.

Atletico Madrid have midfielders who are all better defensively than ours bar Coquelin and Ramsey. Ramsey is in there at a stretch too, because he is nowhere near as disciplined in his game compared to any of the Atletico midfielders.

Rex wrote:

Oh, I agree with that. It's just that Gundogan has always played with partners who are a lot better than him defensively. Sahin is better than Gundogan defensively too btw.

This is more a product of Dortmund having more than one proper midfielder around though. It's a bit like Juventus; it doesn't really matter whether it's Pirlo, Marchisio or Vidal who's playing the deepest role. They're fine either way because all of them are complete players. It's just easier when you've got midfielders like that around. It's something to aspire to rather than to frown upon.