The 2012 African Cup of Nations: Page 15 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

The 2012 African Cup of Nations

RonBurgundy

Captain wrote:
No it isn't, it's nonsense. 😆

I sincerely hope that one day we can have a debate where you actually address each point brought up, rather than putting LOL smilies after every sentence.

Captain

On a lighter note, some of those penalties tonight were unbelievable.

lorddulaarsenal

At an early age mike Tyson didn't want to get in the ring before fights

Mirth

Ricky1985 wrote:
General Mirth wrote:
Ricky, I have to ask, do you think you're a better finisher than Gervinho? 😆

GM, I think you're a better finisher than Gervinho, and you said the other day that you've never played a game of football in your life.

I was bluffing about that, just so we're clear. 😆

Captain

Ron Burgundy wrote:
Captain wrote:
No it isn't, it's nonsense. 😆

I sincerely hope that one day we can have a debate where you actually address each point brought up, rather than putting LOL smilies after every sentence.

I addressed it, you chose to ignore what I said and talk about flying. Hope floats. Cheers.

Ricky1985

yuv wrote:
Proficiency at something is worth more than all the bravado in the world.

It's really both. For some people just one is problematic, you can (sometimes) isolate it, work on it and improve it separately. But with some, the issues are connected, and then the effect is multiplied. Gervinho has confidence issues in general, I agree with those who say it. But it is at least as important that he has shooting problems, and that returns to the mental issue as a vicious cycle.
The claim that "it is a final, 50000 fans, etc." could really be used in the opposite direction: it was all that, and he played well in general (or not worse than his average). He did have the balls to run into the area, try to dribble through a forest of defenders - all the things he trusts he can do - he had no problem doing. It's the pen no that killed him.

As you say yourself, he doesn't have confidence issues in what he knows he's good at, what he knows he can do well - even under pressure.

Confidence in something when you know you actually can't do it, or at least can't do it very well, doesn't help you hole a putt in golf or return a serve in tennis, or put a ball out of the reach of a goalkeeper in a penalty shoot-out.

When push comes to shove, actually being able to do something is the important part.

Timbob

Honestly, there's not a single Premier League footballer that cant pick a spot from 12 yards and, devoid of any outsude influences, hit a ball cleanly in to that spot. If you think otherwise you're hugely underestimating how good these players have to be to get to the level they're playing at.

lorddulaarsenal

Unless its suicide Owen

lorddulaarsenal

It's gervinhos fault. He should have taken a run up as long as kolos n done a klinsmann dive to forehead the damned thing beyond that six foot 3 athletic keeper

Ricky1985

Tim wrote:
Honestly, there's not a single Premier League footballer that cant pick a spot from 12 yards and, devoid of any outsude influences, hit a ball cleanly in to that spot. If you think otherwise you're hugely underestimating how good these players have to be to get to the level they're playing at.

There were part timers playing for Zambia tonight that can strike a ball (far) better than Gervinho can.

yuv

Ricky - I don't disagree, my point is that it's always the mix (a bit like nature-nurture). For some one part is more important, for others less.

Think of those iceberg types, no emotion whatever. Are they affected in the same way as those not made of steel by the knowledge they are less than adequate technically (assume players on the same technical level)? obviously not. Also some who are perfect technically can build on that, while others just shake no matter what.

There certainly is an interdependence. Just that the verdict - how much it affects who, in what way - that could not be universal. it's a mix, each with his own.

Timbob

Ricky1985 wrote:
Tim wrote:
Honestly, there's not a single Premier League footballer that cant pick a spot from 12 yards and, devoid of any outsude influences, hit a ball cleanly in to that spot. If you think otherwise you're hugely underestimating how good these players have to be to get to the level they're playing at.

There were part timers playing for Zambia tonight that can strike a ball (far) better than Gervinho can.

So?

Ricky1985

yuv wrote:
Ricky - I don't disagree, my point is that it's always the mix (a bit like nature-nurture). For some one part is more important, for others less.

Think of those iceberg types, no emotion whatever. Are they affected in the same way as those not made of steel by the knowledge they are less than adequate technically (assume players on the same technical level)? obviously not. Also some who are perfect technically can build on that, while others just shake no matter what.

There certainly is an interdependence. Just that the verdict - how much it affects who, in what way - that could not be universal. it's a mix, each with his own.

Bendtner has more self-belief than every other footballer at Arsenal put together, but he's still misses score-able chances far more often than he should do - because, despite his confidence and self-belief, he often lacks the physical and technical abilities to produce what is needed in a given moment.

He can believe all he wants, and it does help when the ability is present (if the ability is there, so too is the confidence as a result), but it won't change the fact that his second touch will often be a tackle.

Ricky1985

Tim wrote:
Ricky1985 wrote:
There were part timers playing for Zambia tonight that can strike a ball (far) better than Gervinho can.

So?

So if no marks for Zambia can outdo Gervinho, what he can do, despite be a Premier League footballer, can't be all that special. Even by normal standards.

Do I think Gervinho can reliably and consistently side-foot the ball with real power and accuracy? No I don't.

yuv

But Surely Bendtner is not a good example of the interdependence? he is just shit technically, a lost case (he always was, IMO). No influence of training and improving technically on his confidence, affecting his final level in turn? (or I miss your point?)
(BTW, there is an important mental side with him, but it is definitely not confidence related, or not under-confidence, at least).

Edit: I think Bendtner enters the iceberg type from the e.g. before.

Timbob

And Arshavin has the best shooting technique of any any other footballer at Arsenal, but he still misses score-able chances far more often than he should do, because he lacks real confidence, self belief and composure.

Anway, this is besides the point. We were talking about penalties (or, more specifically, 1 penalty in a huge final), and as far as I'm concerned it goes without saying that all top level professional footballers can strike a good dead ball from 12 yards 99/100 until you add external pressures.

Timbob

Ricky1985 wrote:
Tim wrote:
So?

So if no marks for Zambia can outdo Gervinho, what he can do, despite be a Premier League footballer, can't be all that special. Even by normal standards.

Do I think Gervinho can reliably and consistently side-foot the ball with real power and accuracy? No I don't.

There are no mark tennis players who can hit a serve as hard as Rafa Nadal. No mark cricketers who can strike a cricket ball further than Andrew strauss.

My point was, ALL premier league footballers can strike a clean ball from 12 yards pretty much every time until you add in external pressures.

y va marquer

"wengerknowsbest: I must say the first half of Gervinho's run-up showed quality but he dropped a little bit physically in the second half."
--http://twitter.com/wengerknowsbest/status/

Ricky1985

Tim wrote:
Ricky1985 wrote:
So if no marks for Zambia can outdo Gervinho, what he can do, despite be a Premier League footballer, can't be all that special. Even by normal standards.

Do I think Gervinho can reliably and consistently side-foot the ball with real power and accuracy? No I don't.

There are no mark tennis players who can hit a serve as hard as Rafa Nadal. No mark cricketers who can strike a cricket ball further than Andrew strauss.

My point was, ALL premier league footballers can strike a clean ball from 12 yards pretty much every time until you add in external pressures.

You can't just bunch all Premier League footballers together like that. Martin Keown could never have struck a ball, side-foot or whatever, with the same power, accuracy and consistency as Darren Bent can, let alone Thierry Henry. In the same way Theo Walcott would wipe the floor with Gervinho if you were to pit them against each other in a side-foot competition.

The more skilled you are at a striking a football, the more confident you are stepping up. I don't see why that's difficult to accept. Sure, you're going to feel other pressures, but a lack of belief in your ability to do what is needed makes it ten times more difficult to actually go ahead and do it.

Surely you've experienced that yourself? The difference in confidence you have when push comes to shove in something you know you're good at and something you know you're not?

yuv

y va marquer wrote:
"wengerknowsbest: I must say the first half of Gervinho's run-up showed quality but he dropped a little bit physically in the second half."
--http://twitter.com/wengerknowsbest/status/

😆 Is this the same as Armor's earlier? didn't realize he got it from there.

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