The Aaron Ramsey Player Thread: Page 9 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

The Aaron Ramsey Player Thread

yuv

Klaus wrote:
That's the thing, isn't it. Ramsey is playing like a real midfielder. Cesc had a custom built role which was much closer to a Bergkamp or a Totti. We're much more solid centrally nowadays, but since Fabregas left the importance of a playmaker in the attack increased even more. And it's fair to say that we needed one when he was here too. Nasri looked like he was about to turn into one but we sold him as well. You don't replace two players like that with Gervinho and call it a day. That's asking for finish 5th.

And into this void you throw Ramsey, with Art and Song next to him: is it any wonder he's trying so hard to tie it all together on his own? is it really surprising he runs like a maniac, tries so many things - and yes, get's a fair share of failed attempts? If anything, I'm generally happy with the level he's in, the chances he does manage to serve, even the shots on goal, on a whole, are not too bad.

But this also explains why I want him to back off a bit: this trying to do it all himself, and trying to do it by trying harder and harder, more effort, more pace - that couldn't be helping.

Burnwinter

Klaus wrote:
That's the thing, isn't it. Ramsey is playing like a real midfielder. Cesc had a custom built role which was much closer to a Bergkamp or a Totti. We're much more solid centrally nowadays, but since Fabregas left the importance of a playmaker in the attack increased even more. And it's fair to say that we needed one when he was here too. Nasri looked like he was about to turn into one but we sold him as well. You don't replace two players like that with Gervinho and call it a day. That's asking for finish 5th.

I think this is the factually correct opinion Klaus. Getting rid of the Cesc role (and not just the player) has cost us a bit going forward.

One other aspect of Nasri's game was the ball retention he brought us in advanced positions, even when he wasn't being productive. I half suspect our new, allegedly more direct style derives in part from Gervinho and Walcott's distaste for holding the ball.

Anyone else remember how we used to complain about Sagna and Nasri predictably shuttling the ball back and forth outside the area on the right?

And of course, we're suffering badly at the moment due to the absence of Sagna and Santos both of whom would contribute considerably more in attack than the alternatives.

Klaus

yuv wrote:
Klaus wrote:
That's the thing, isn't it. Ramsey is playing like a real midfielder. Cesc had a custom built role which was much closer to a Bergkamp or a Totti. We're much more solid centrally nowadays, but since Fabregas left the importance of a playmaker in the attack increased even more. And it's fair to say that we needed one when he was here too. Nasri looked like he was about to turn into one but we sold him as well. You don't replace two players like that with Gervinho and call it a day. That's asking for finish 5th.

And into this void you throw Ramsey, with Art and Song next to him: is it any wonder he's trying so hard to tie it all together on his own?

It's not, but that's what I'm driving at. I get the sense that people still think he should - or even is supposed to - play a similar role to Cesc just because he's generally the midfielder who's positioned closest to the attacking players. I mean it's not even hard to single some comments out if you can be bothered to browse through the pages of the thread. From memory he's been called the weakest link in our setup and it's been said that he "deserves to be slaughtered" for our poor goal spread. None of it is true. Villas-Boas and Ferguson would bite our collective hand off if we offered him to Chelsea or United tomorrow.

Klaus

Burnwinter wrote:
One other aspect of Nasri's game was the ball retention he brought us in advanced positions, even when he wasn't being productive.

I think that's an aspect of Nasri's game that got somewhat lost among the criticism aimed towards his performances during the spring last season. He was a bit of a coward when taking players on, but he provided options, angles and brought other people into play. You take someone like Hleb, that's all he ever did. But Nasri gained a bit of directness in his game which, combined with his sound all-round play and willingness to move the ball, made him very useful. We needed to replace him with something similar, not something similar to Walcott. I've slated Gervinho a lot lately but I actually like him. I think he's got potential to work with and he looks dangerous when he gets the ball. But the idea that he should be our attacking hub is just wrong. Even if he starts putting all those chances away it will still be wrong.

Burnwinter

Yes, and Nasri provided a forward outlet to recycle the play as well as bringing in the players around him. His combination with Fabregas was the axis of our territorial game in the last couple of years. Personally I'm willing to go along with the idea that the added directness he brought last season was merely a purple patch, but I suppose it doesn't matter while he warms the City bench.

The common thread that appears to be developing in this discussion, which is a school of thought I've seen elsewhere, is that we should only start one of Gervinho and Walcott, and use an alternative type of player - Goetze thanks! - on the other. Not rocket science but it makes sense.

Nevertheless, we do need to find a little more creativity out of the midfield itself. That may come when Wilshere returns, and Ramsey gets a rest and doesn't feel required to spray an assist every time he gets the ball.

Gazza M

this is shifting away from ramsey and into a discussion of our overall attack. a bit of protesting too much. put simply, i think we'd be a better overall team - crap wingers and all - with a fit wilshere in place of ramsey, because he's a better footballer.

fwiw, i do agree we should balance one of our flanks with an intelligent, technical player capable of circulating the ball

yuv

The "fit Jack, superior option" intuition is shared by many, and it very well may be true. One thing to remember though, is that in a funny way we risk just the same thing we were discussing here: throwing Jack in the deep end, in the post Fabregas hole, with the same detrimental expectations Ramsey has. Could be he'll do much better, but the truth is we don't know - it's not like he's already done that before.
What surely is true is that we'll be a lot better as a team when Jack is back (and on form).

Rex

Ramsey is a fine player really. Only things really missing from his game IMO is that he loses the ball a bit too much still, and composure in goal scoring situations. The positives far outweigh those negatives, and I am convinced he will be one of the best midfielders in the league within a couple of seasons.

As for the Wilshere/Ramsey debate, I feel it is pointless. They will both play. Maybe not always together initially, but soon enough. After having seen those two boss the Man U game at the Grove last season you´d be mad to think they can´t play together in a midfield.

Gazza M

yuv wrote:
The "fit Jack, superior option" intuition is shared by many, and it very well may be true. One thing to remember though, is that in a funny way we risk just the same thing we were discussing here: throwing Jack in the deep end, in the post Fabregas hole, with the same detrimental expectations Ramsey has. Could be he'll do much better, but the truth is we don't know - it's not like he's already done that before.
What surely is true is that we'll be a lot better as a team when Jack is back (and on form).

what's important - and what's been missing from our team - is jack's positivity. he instinctively gains ten yards every time he receives the ball. he puts us on the front foot and looks to join the attack. i haven't seen that from ramsey even when he's been at his best, and it's something we need badly.

Posted by Humble Rex - Today 11:17 AM
Ramsey is a fine player really. Only things really missing from his game IMO is that he loses the ball a bit too much still, and composure in goal scoring situations. The positives far outweigh those negatives, and I am convinced he will be one of the best midfielders in the league within a couple of seasons.

As for the Wilshere/Ramsey debate, I feel it is pointless. They will both play. Maybe not always together initially, but soon enough. After having seen those two boss the Man U game at the Grove last season you´d be mad to think they can´t play together in a midfield.

no-one is saying they can't, but i think wilshere, arteta, song will be first choice if everyones available

kamikaze

possession issue is due to mediocre wingers and injured fullbacks. i dont give nasri any credit for keeping the ball. that's no different from the "denilson recycles possession" argument. it just shows how poor we've been out wide, basically sub-denilson level. and i do believe we're that poor there - it would make a world a difference in terms of counterattacking, combination play and possession to bring in a top player out wide.

as for the attack, it's good that we got rid of the fabregas role because it was not unlike playing 424 at times. not enough protection in midfield. but i don't think it was all tactical, i think a lot of the non-defending was just fabregas' ego growing, not wanting to risk injury, and realising that defending isn't going to win him a ballon d'or.

as for ramsey, i really wish he'd simplify his game and stop trying to be fabregas. he's just not at the same level technically or mentally. that's not going to change even if his form improves.

glad this thread is back on track.

yuv

what's important - and what's been missing from our team - is jack's positivity. he instinctively gains ten yards every time he receives the ball. he puts us on the front foot and looks to join the attack. i haven't seen that from ramsey even when he's been at his best, and it's something we need badly.

TBH I think it would be more reasonably presented through Jack's superior ability to keep possession, and that even as he's moving forward or spreading play. "Positivity" as such is not really missing from Ramsey's game (although it's a tricky word, so I'm not sure exactly how you see it). But surely you don't mean you haven't seen Ramsey joining attack, right?

Rex

Aaron has character. He never hides on the pitch and he takes responsibility. I can well see him as a future captain for us. If we improve as a team of course. If we don´t he and Jack eventually will fuck off to a club that shows ambition.

yuv

I see both him and Jack here for many years. Wish I had that confidence regarding our captain.

Rex

Players rarely want to piss away their careers.

Gazza M

yuv wrote:
what's important - and what's been missing from our team - is jack's positivity. he instinctively gains ten yards every time he receives the ball. he puts us on the front foot and looks to join the attack. i haven't seen that from ramsey even when he's been at his best, and it's something we need badly.

TBH I think it would be more reasonably presented through Jack's superior ability to keep possession, and that even as he's moving forward or spreading play. "Positivity" as such is not really missing from Ramsey's game (although it's a tricky word, so I'm not sure exactly how you see it). But surely you don't mean you haven't seen Ramsey joining attack, right?

ramsey tries to be positive, but his inconsistent techinique jams him up alot. in our team, that extra second or two it takes to receive and immediately be doing something positive is crucial. that's the big edge jack has over ramsey.

Coombs

yuv wrote:
The "fit Jack, superior option" intuition is shared by many, and it very well may be true. One thing to remember though, is that in a funny way we risk just the same thing we were discussing here: throwing Jack in the deep end, in the post Fabregas hole, with the same detrimental expectations Ramsey has. Could be he'll do much better, but the truth is we don't know - it's not like he's already done that before.
What surely is true is that we'll be a lot better as a team when Jack is back (and on form).

I think that this is, in a very big way, the reason why Ramsey comes under such intense scrutiny. Perhaps some are using him as a scapegoat, but I think that others of us have a genuine fear when it comes to this "role" in the midfield. We don't really have any other options apart from the theoretical idea that JW will be a great/world class creative midfielder. He may be great, but creative mid has never been his role in the first team, and there's really not that much reason to believe he'd be better at it than Ramsey.

I think a lot of criticism of Ramsey is more a criticism of the tactical role he appears to play in the team...the space he occupies more than the player himself. He seems to struggle in that space, whether its Gerv/Theo's fault or Wenger's or Kroenke's. (probably all of the above tbh) Probably mostly due to the fact that he seems more and more to be taking up the same space that a certain former captain once dominated. If the role changed, and the creative burden was better shared across the squad, he might be touted as one of our "undroppables."

Trying to reach across the isle here, but even in saying so I still think he's not playing at the level we need him to be.

Rex

Personally I think Ramsey is better suited to play a few meters further back. What Jack has over Ramsey is his ability to blow by players by just a drop of his shoulder. This ability to unsettle a defense is something that Ramsey doesn´t really have. However, Ramsey is at this point in time way superior to Jack when it comes to timing his runs into the box, and the ability to get himself into goalscoring positions.

Ideally Arteta will be phased out over the next season and a half to accomodate both these talented players. In the short term, much like Klaus says, I think it could be an interesting idea to use Wilshere wide to counter the current lack of playmaking ability from our wide forwards. In the long run though I see both Jack and Aaron as central players. With a bit of luck they will form a formidable pairing at CM for us for many years.

I am Arsenal Till I Die

I too think we could try playing Jack out wide. He surely wouldn't do worse than Theo or Arshavin.
Although I'd much rather see Chamberlin getting game time there.

Gazza M

shunting jack out wide would be just the type of budget, paper-over-the-cracks maneuver wenger has become known for. he'd be so wasted out there.

I am Arsenal Till I Die

Agreed.

But Jack is different to other players Arsene has put on the wing namely Diaby Eboue. Heck, even Denlson has played wide.

Jack does have a few qualities that we could use out wide. He has great close control and a superb drive forward. How much we'd benefit from playing him wide we will never know(unless Wenger does play him there).

Edit - Basically what Rex said.

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