The Aaron Ramsey Player Thread: Page 8 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

The Aaron Ramsey Player Thread

Woolwichgooner

There is a big difference to me between working ones socks off and doing a headless chicken routine.

I do like ramsey but things are just not working out with him and it's hurting the team.

Klaus

I disagree, but at any rate the solution is not Abou Diaby or Tomas Rosicky.

redwhiteAustrian

If that is, what Ramsey's done against United last and Chelsea this season, being a "headless chicken", I can't wait for each of our other players turning into one too.

Woolwichgooner

Any one in the squad who is currently fit and can play there would do for me mate.

Klaus

Ramsey is fit and can play there.

I find this thread a bit silly. I'm not sure what people are looking for. Ramsey is a terrific player who's improving by each month. Compared to others in the league he's doing just fine. There's no one at either United, Chelsea or Liverpool that I'd swap him for.

yuv

Though I agree with you on Ramsey, I'm not sure I agree the thread is silly: there's too much unclear and up for debate to ignore. The pro Ramsey side are not fazed by the failures or the anti Ramsey crowds, but (at least the realists among them) do not hide there's stuff to improve, and admit that at least some of the positive verdict is down to what he's shaping up to be.
The Anti Ramsey bunch (say many things, frankly I can't be arsed to represent them properly 🙂 ), but hardly any of them go as far as wanting him away from Arsenal (they think from "let him develop as a squadie" - to "all he will ever be is one", basically), and they point to harm he's causing at this point (rather than he'll always be shit).

It is also interesting coz it seems hard to establish just what it is exactly that is right/wrong with him. Most can cite flicks n' tricks, losing possession on the down side, but as we know, it's not that simple. Think of his final third passes: "our" side is always sensitive to just how good some of them are, and we keep a virtual assist table he'd have if not for dire finishing; Anti's just think of high risk, careless, not Fabregas level passes (all that while similar risks by Arshavin for 2 years got praise, not necessarily for better completion, e.g.).
Or "he's running his socks off" - for most a plus, at least a vindication ("he's shit but he tries"), but to me he runs too much (and more generally he's trying too hard). I'm not against his showing up deep to finish when everyone else is dead - I just think in order to raise the level of his game where it is important (where some of the just complaints appear), he'd do better than base his game on 100% effort, 100% of the time. He'd be more accurate in passing and shooting, he'd find the killer pass more often, he'd read the game better (and perhaps establish his authority on the game - Wales NT games come to mind) when he's confident enough to build on other traits of his but "T'riffic engine".

So I don't see this debate ending, or becoming boring anytime soon. Well, at least until his level is beyond debate ;D

Coombs

I don't think its so clear cut as Ramsey vs. Anti-Ramsey. There are some who think that Ramsey is a fine player and don't much care how good he will eventually be, though we might hope and even believe that the answer is very very good indeed. Fact is, he doesn't score, he's got a few assists, and in general he plays well enough, but doesn't release the ball soon enough and makes too many sloppy passes.

This is not the highest level he is capable of even now. He's played better for us in the past even after his comeback. There is zero competition for his spot in the team. This is a bad thing, and is reflected in performances.

His "T'riffic engine" is often a bit more hustle and bustle than actual productivity, yes, but that'll happen with any player in any game. It can't all be gold.

Having blind faith and unconditional support for the boy is just as absurd as those who think he's a squaddie for life. Nothing wrong with saying he's not playing well when he isn't. Just because others are playing poorly too doesn't give him any absolution. Ifs and buts don't count when all is said and done.

Burnwinter

@[deleted] good post.

What people are grappling with is that Ramsey is not now half the player Fabregas was. The current sop is that he's "more of an English style midfielder, characterised by workrate, shots and runs into the box than his range of passing".

That's just a storyline, and true, and Ramsey has more development left in him. Meanwhile we badly lack a player to pull the strings in attack.

Not to mention a competent striker outside of Van Persie, but that's a separate issue.

At this rate it's going to be a long second half of the season marked by disappointment. We're going to have to be vigilant not to pass blame to Aaron Ramsey or any other player. I agree with those who expect Wilshere's eventual return to take some of the spotlight off Ramsey, but there's every chance Wilshere will struggle for a while too given his prolonged absence.

Klaus

Coombs wrote:
Nothing wrong with saying he's not playing well when he isn't.

It's wrong to keep saying that he's playing poorly when he's really not, though.

Ramsey should definitely score a bit more but it's not really his job. Ultimately it doesn't make any difference whether he's got 2 or 5 goals at this point. He's not playing in Cesc's old advanced role. He's part of a midfield trio that is positioned further back in the field. All this talk about playing a second striker role is silly. At no point has he been asked to do that, but people see what they want to see.

The real letdown is our forward line, and they've been fed excellent balls all season. They just don't convert the chances or bring others into play. You could replace Ramsey with a better player and the team would still look about the same. If you brought a proper wide forward with a bit of playmaking ability into the side, on the other hand, we'd be challenging for honors instead of 5th place.

Gazza M

Klaus wrote:
Coombs wrote:
Nothing wrong with saying he's not playing well when he isn't.

It's wrong to keep saying that he's playing poorly when he's really not, though.

Ramsey should definitely score a bit more but it's not really his job. Ultimately it doesn't make any difference whether he's got 2 or 5 goals at this point. He's not playing in Cesc's old advanced role. He's part of a midfield trio that is positioned further back in the field. All this talk about playing a second striker role is silly. At no point has he been asked to do that, but people see what they want to see.

The real letdown is our forward line, and they've been fed excellent balls all season. They just don't convert the chances or bring others into play. You could replace Ramsey with a better player and the team would still look about the same. If you brought a proper wide forward with a bit of playmaking ability into the side, on the other hand, we'd be challenging for honors instead of 5th place.

i don't think anyone here has done that tbh. ramsey has been given alot of rope due to his nationality, age, and injury history. still doesn't change the fact that his touch is inconsistent and he he regularly dwells on the ball and gets dispossessed. when he's poor, he gets called on it. he's not being made a scapegoat for all of our problems.

Klaus

Reading through the thread I'm of a different opinion. I think he gets scapegoated for our malfunctioning attack. I think that's the reason why this thread exists.

Gazza M

have to disagree with you. the popular consensus is that we currently have no-one on capable of playing on rvp's level. ramsey is just one of many.

yuv

@ Coombs - not only not so clear pro & anti Ramsey (though I used this presentation), it is in general very complicated. That's basically what I was trying to say, and the reason this debate is not likely to go away soon.

That we don't have anyone to challenge him (or good one, at least) is true, but the main worry here (relevant to his level) is that he's playing too much. I don't see him as one who needs the competition as most players do (so - no, I don't think this is reflected in his performances; his playing too much - more likely). But as most, I'm praying we'll see Jack at his best real soon - that is surely the thing we miss most.

About his "engine", I actually agree with you. That's why I said I'd like him to not put so much on it.

Mirth

I'm with Klaus on this one. Ramsey's can do a lot better but his performances have not been bad. Equally, I don't think people are wrong to expect better but he's not our main problem and also one which will improve with time. I'm not saying every young player deserves the benefit of the doubt for their youth because that's how we're in this mess but Ramsey is the exception.

If you want to blame our lack of goals it has got to be the wide players above everyone else in the team. Including Chamakh. The lack of movement and their overall play has been SHOCKING. I like Gervinho. I don't mind Walcott. But together their worse than shit on a stick. Their movement is average, they can't finish, they cannot spot a pass, they don't have any variation on their passing and they are incredibly easy to read as a defender. It's like playing football with idiots, you can't help but dwell on the ball a fraction longer or miss a pass because they don't offer those angles.

I'm not defending Ramsey over the other two but the effect has snowballed and those players are hurting each other as much as their hurting themselves. I'd even argue that van Persie isn't able to work with his team-mates, he's just getting away with it because he's a world class footballer. What I'm trying to say is that in a perfect world, Gervinho and Walcott would be finding their feet with Fabregas supplying them the passes. Equally, Ramsey should be breaking through with Pires and Ljungberb making life easy for him. What we have is three players who've barely played with each other with very little proven ability and it's not altogether surprising that they all look worse than they are.

yuv

Gazza M wrote:
have to disagree with you. the popular consensus is that we currently have no-one on capable of playing on rvp's level. ramsey is just one of many.

Did you really not see the phrase "our weakest link" being used? I thought it was quite popular lately.

yuv

General Mirth wrote:
What we have is three players who've barely played with each other with very little proven ability and it's not altogether surprising that they all look worse than they are.

And they start playing together with Ramsey slotting in for Cesc, that had the whole team built around him. That doesn't make it easier.

Gazza M

no i haven't. i don't think he's our weakest link. he's one of many people who aren't up to standard.

yuv

I understood you well, but there were quite a few people who pointed at Ramsey as being a major problem (and, TBH, that's been going on for a while - it only gets more attention when we lose and he concedes a penno, etc.).

Klaus

yuv wrote:
General Mirth wrote:
What we have is three players who've barely played with each other with very little proven ability and it's not altogether surprising that they all look worse than they are.

And they start playing together with Ramsey slotting in for Cesc, that had the whole team built around him. That doesn't make it easier.

That's the thing, isn't it. Ramsey is playing like a real midfielder. Cesc had a custom built role which was much closer to a Bergkamp or a Totti. We're much more solid centrally nowadays, but since Fabregas left the importance of a playmaker in the attack has increased even more. And it's fair to say that we needed one when he was here too. Nasri looked like he was about to turn into one but we sold him as well. You don't replace two players like that with Gervinho and call it a day. That's asking to finish 5th.

Qwiss

Klaus wrote:
Coombs wrote:
Nothing wrong with saying he's not playing well when he isn't.

It's wrong to keep saying that he's playing poorly when he's really not, though.

Ramsey should definitely score a bit more but it's not really his job. Ultimately it doesn't make any difference whether he's got 2 or 5 goals at this point. He's not playing in Cesc's old advanced role. He's part of a midfield trio that is positioned further back in the field. All this talk about playing a second striker role is silly. At no point has he been asked to do that, but people see what they want to see.

The real letdown is our forward line, and they've been fed excellent balls all season. They just don't convert the chances or bring others into play. You could replace Ramsey with a better player and the team would still look about the same. If you brought a proper wide forward with a bit of playmaking ability into the side, on the other hand, we'd be challenging for honors instead of 5th place.

Good post. You can't slate Ramseys assist rate in one breath and Gervinho and Walcotts wastefulness in the next. Ramsey is consistently getting good passes to the wide men, how many times this season has anyone thought "oh Gervinho/Walcott just aren't getting the service"?

Ramsey isn't world class at this stage but he is good. The idea that he's been consistently been playing poorly is absolute bollox TBH. He had a bad game against Swansea and one before he got a weeks rest a few weeks ago, can't remember who it was against. Apart from that though he's been at worst decent.

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