Can Jack replace Cesc?: Page 2 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Can Jack replace Cesc?

Claudius

My biggest concern with the 4 3 3, Burns, is that we using it to cover up various player's deficiencies and we are losing quality/focus in various parts of the field. Our problems are numerous
1) the formation has one dedicated striker, but we do not have a striker of the requisite quality. this formation needs a Drogba, Torres, Villa level of striker who is guaranteed of scoring 25+ goals. none of van Persie, Chamakh, Bendtner etc are enough on their own
2) we stick No. 10s out wide in the frontline. this means we do not not have natural width, and often these players do not have the ability to aid the lone striker with the scoring. once you put a striker (eg Chamakh) out there, you lose width altogether
3) central midfield is a mess. we have Cesc and then two other half players whose contributions are supposed to equal that of one man. All of Diaby, Song and Denilson have big gaps in their games. Replace with one good DM (eg the thug De Jong) and we now have an extra position available for the wings/strikeforce.

Later this season, it might be worthwhile testing Ramsey/Wilshere midfield against teams with lesser midfields. It would require greater defensive focus from our full-backs, but we would make up for this by having two dedicated wide men (eg ARshavin and Walcott).

Burnwinter

"We don't have a top top top notch striker" is just as much of a problem if you switch to 4-4-2.

Deeply sceptical about 4-4-2 with this squad. Don't think we have the right players for not one or two, but the majority of the positions ahead of the back four.

kamikaze

i think we'd have to play with tucked in wide players to play 442 with our personnel, kinda like we did in 07/08. something like rosicky, fabregas, ramsey, nasri. so it'd almost be like a 4 CM system that's more defensive than a 433, but the midfield runs could come from anywhere in midfield.

but whatever, i don't want to get too anzac on here. agree very much with zico, though.

Burnwinter

I get that, but with the amount of shuttling between the lines and the lack of positional discipline we constantly bemoan, and the continuing lack of width in such a lineup, I doubt there would be a huge tangible improvement or change in our style.

Rosicky, Fabregas, Ramsey, Nasri, with Arshavin and van Persie ahead of them (because I can't see Arshavin riding the bench for long) is ultimately going to play pretty similarly to our current lineup, no?

Biggus

Welcome aboard Zico. 🙂

kamikaze80 wrote:
it's wenger's fault that supporters like biggus might equate fabregas to the "spanish style" and possession football. if anything, he sticks out in that spain team as the one midfielder who really wants to accelerate play and drive forward towards goal. i firmly believe fabregas, if he had the choice, would prefer to play with more direct (but equally technical) players, like the invincibles, than a bunch of tippy-tappy sissies. blame the possession crap on wenger, not fabregas, because if you think we're changing our style of play when fabregas leaves, you're going to be disappointed.

Ohh i agree Kami, I said I didn't blame Fabregas, he's a great player and great players can play in any system.
I completely blame Wenger and his creature Primorac, they should surround Fabregas with very different players that compliment him not just an army of poor clones.

Btw we had a 25+ goal striker, Wenger sold him.

kamikaze

Burnwinter wrote:
I get that, but with the amount of shuttling between the lines and the lack of positional discipline we constantly bemoan, and the continuing lack of width in such a lineup, I doubt there would be a huge tangible improvement or change in our style.

Rosicky, Fabregas, Ramsey, Nasri, with Arshavin and van Persie ahead of them (because I can't see Arshavin riding the bench for long) is ultimately going to play pretty similarly to our current lineup, no?

i agree, defensive workrate and covering might be an issue and lack of physical power in midfield will be an issue. i was thinking the same up top, or even chamakh/van persie or van persie/walcott. switch to 4141 and bring song in when we need to be more cagey.

but if gibbs were LB, it might bring the best out of his game having rosicky and arshavin in front of him. we could also get width from arshavin or walcott drifting wide. as you say, the players are going to play the way they play regardless of formation, so it's just a matter of finding a system/lineup where everyone is playing where they're most comfortable and link up best with their teammates, offensively and defensively.

Claudius

How many teams in the Premier League do we actually need midfield muscle against? Chelsea and City? Okay, on those days, you can throw in Song or Diaby to shore up things. But most other midfields can simply be outplayed. The problem with Chelsea and City is that guys like Essien and Toure are built like wardrobes yet still sexy on the ball.

I just want to see the team reformatted so that we start moving the ball up quickly and defending better. We can't play Barcelona ball unless Fabregas's has creative help the way Xavi has Messi and Iniesta

Burnwinter

Zico wrote:
Okay, on those days, you can throw in Song or Diaby to shore up things.

But according to the theory that Song and Diaby slow the game down too much by dwelling in possession, it's against the likes of Chelsea and City that that inability to release the ball quickly most tells against us.

It's logically a problem against any side with a deep defence that is truly difficult to unpick when set back for long periods with us in possession, because it's against those sides that we need to nail our chances during transition.

Against most opposition, retaining the ball and building pressure through sustained possession until an opportunity presents itself is a good option. That's despite the odd frustrating day where it doesn't come off.

Walcott in his early season form would make a significant difference. We need him back, and I find it surprising that I'm saying that.

We really need our full complement of first choice players to get anything out of this league season. If we don't get back to near full strength and stay there for a while we're screwed.

RocktheCasbah

Isn't the truth of the matter though, that our style of football is almost tailor made for the likes of Chelsea (and possibly Manchester City) to get a result against us? Bearing in mind the fact that we like to try and play through the middle and these teams are so strong in the middle, it's not just a case of unpicking one lock. Once you unpick that one, there's another massive blue door in front of you, and then another...

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it was fairly clear last week that we couldn't get through that 7 man blockade on the edge of the Chelsea area. We needed someone to stretch the Chelsea defence, get behind them and get some quality deliveries into the penalty area. Someone, in other words, like Theo Walcott.

As regards the original post, yes, I do believe Jack can replace Cesc. And, if he continues as he's begun the season, it may be a relatively painless transition. Especially if Aaron Ramsey can come back as the player he was beginning to look like last season.

Lukazan

I was very impressed with Wilshere's performance against Chelsea. I said that it reminded me very much of the kind of performances Cesc was displaying after Vieira's departure in 04. He didn't create a whole lot in terms of goal-scoring chances for others but he was constantly dropping back and demanding the ball and when he got it he was composed and confident on it, popped off a lot useful passes and that is very similar to what Cesc was doing in his break-through season. Cesc didn't really start consistently creating for us until the season after and I'm hoping the same will happen with Wilshere.

Ramsey is a quality player in the making, I just hope he can fully recover from his broken leg and carry on where he left off.

Fully replacing Cesc though is a massive ask. It's easy to forget and take for granted just how good he is. The best midfielder in the world for me when he is on his game. Players like him don't come around too often.

It's going to be really interesting to see what happens with the centre of our midfield when Cesc leaves. We've got Wilshere, Diaby, Song, Denilson and Ramsey all fighting for a place there, not to mention Nasri making noise about wanting to play there too.

Qwiss

Burnwinter wrote:
"We don't have a top top top notch striker" is just as much of a problem if you switch to 4-4-2.

Deeply sceptical about 4-4-2 with this squad. Don't think we have the right players for not one or two, but the majority of the positions ahead of the back four.

No top team plays 4-4-2 any more. Ok you might use it sometimes but against the other top teams everyone goes for 3 in midfield rather than 2. If Chelsea tried to play 4-4-2 against us they'd be over run in midfield and vice versa. I'd love to go back to 4-4-2 football as I feel its much more entertaining but unfortunately I just don't think it'd work.

And you've hit the nail on the head, the problem of lacking a top class striker will be shown with one or two up top.

We need a killer in front of goal.

Burnwinter

Yeah, exactly. Narrow and packed midfields with multiple holding players are a norm now and wishing for the days of fast-paced, wide running attacking football won't make it so.

Kel Varnsen

Don Pacifico wrote:
How are they different as players?

How do they compare?

Can Jack surpass Cesc?

difficult to compare, but no i don't think he can neither replace nor surpass cesc.

cesc, on form, is one of the 4-5 best players in the world imo. don't think wilshere will ever reach those heights.

Don Pacifico

Short and to the point; you really have a man-crush on Fabregas, Kel. 😉

One of my criticisms with Cesc has always been that he is a bit one-dimensional and what I like about Jack (and Aaron) is that they seem better-rounded players, although of course it's early days. I think this point is particularly pertinent when we face criticism that the weaknesses in our team derive from the fact that our formation is set up to accommodate Cesc. He has flourished in the 4-3-3 where there is less of a defensive burden to be shouldered but in a 4-4-2, our spine was much more fragile (aside from Song's defensive failings). At this point in time, I'd still favour a 4-4-2 formation with two well-rounded midfielders (rather than a diamond with a pure AM and DM) as I just think it would make us more robust. I guess that's how I envisage Jack and Aaron being utilised in the future.

Pepe LeFrits

I agree with Kel. Jack is an immense prospect but Cesc is an even rarer talent. I don't agree with him being one dimensional at all. Cesc has been pushed forward not so much to mask his defensive frailties but to amplify his attacking attributes (and to mask the frailties of our other CMs). Losing Cesc, whenever it happens, really won't have any upside in terms of pure ability. It'll a step down whoever we go for.

Kel Varnsen

Don Pacifico wrote:
Short and to the point; you really have a man-crush on Fabregas, Kel. 😉

One of my criticisms with Cesc has always been that he is a bit one-dimensional and what I like about Jack (and Aaron) is that they seem better-rounded players, although of course it's early days. I think this point is particularly pertinent when we face criticism that the weaknesses in our team derive from the fact that our formation is set up to accommodate Cesc. He has flourished in the 4-3-3 where there is less of a defensive burden to be shouldered but in a 4-4-2, our spine was much more fragile (aside from Song's defensive failings). At this point in time, I'd still favour a 4-4-2 formation with two well-rounded midfielders (rather than a diamond with a pure AM and DM) as I just think it would make us more robust. I guess that's how I envisage Jack and Aaron being utilised in the future.

yes, i love cesc. :dulaoohtobe:

i think cesc is a very special talent. great control, vision, stamina and all those other good things. however, what i really like about cesc, is his attitude on the pitch. he always wants to go forward, create something and play good football. this is for instance why i prefer him to xavi, iniesta, pirlo and other classic central midfielder playmakers.

no one else can do what cesc does. to be able to always look for the positive, creative decision takes something very special. something even most world class midfielders lack.

so when i say i don't think wilshere can replace cesc, it's not because i have my doubts about wilshere, but rather that i think cesc is one of a kind.

Klaus

Pepe LeFrits wrote:
I agree with Kel. Jack is an immense prospect but Cesc is an even rarer talent. I don't agree with him being one dimensional at all. Cesc has been pushed forward not so much to mask his defensive frailties but to amplify his attacking attributes (and to mask the frailties of our other CMs). Losing Cesc, whenever it happens, really won't have any upside in terms of pure ability. It'll a step down whoever we go for.

Top post. That's exactly how I feel about it too. I don't think it's fair to Jack to expect him to replace Cesc. They're not the same type of player at all. It's the Nasri debate all over again, where people honestly suggested that he'd produce the same performances as Fabregas if given the opportunity to play a similar role. Nasri is a very good player but he's not Cesc, and he never will be for a number of obvious reasons. There is one Fabregas, and we're gonna suffer if and when we lose him.

Don Pacifico

I know what you're saying but I think that misses the point in terms of potential tactical and formation re-shifts. In that sense, I still that Jack can potentially match Cesc's contribution.

Klaus

I don't consider that replacing a player though. In that case you can argue that a player has been replaced as soon as someone takes his place in the starting eleven. Those "tactical and formation re-shifts" you're talking about is the same argument as you yourself dismissed when people suggested that the team isn't set up in a way to get the best out of Cesc. It's not a way to get Jack (or Nasri, or whoever we're talking about) to match Cesc's contribution. It's a way to cover up for everything he can't match. Wilshere will never do what Cesc does to the same effect. I have no doubt that he'll develop into his own type of player though. The best ones always do.

Don Pacifico

We've had Bergkamp and Henry both of whom were two of the best we'll ever see in Arsenal colours. We replaced them and I don't think we were weaker for it, we were simply different. Cesc subsequently became the new talisman and I anticipate that someone else will pick up the baton once he's left.

When we boil it down, Cesc's greatest contribution to our team is what he adds to our attack but there's more than one way to skin a cat and we can find different but equally potent ways of going about our business. If we're talking players who we've struggled to replace in terms of contribution to our team, I'd plump for Vieira.

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