Burnwinter wrote:

The facts remain the same, as I said.

• We have no European trophy under Wenger.
• We didn't qualify for Europe for most of the decade leading up to Wenger's appointment.
• We've been in the Champions League for many, many consecutive seasons under Wenger.

The facts remain the same ...

• We have no European trophy under Wenger.
  *Err we actually won the European cup winners cup and were beaten finalists the two years prior to Wenger taking over.
• We didn't qualify for the Champions league because they didn't give it out for 4th place mid table teams in those days.

Facts are only meaningless when you get them wrong or misinterpret them.

Burnwinter wrote:

• We didn't qualify for Europe for most of the decade leading up to Wenger's appointment.

The facts remain the same.

English teams were banned from Europe for half of that decade.

This is too easy.

The facts remain the same.

I agree with Biggus that Arsenal are a second tier club in europe but they are at the top of that tier and an attractive proposition for pretty much any player from a sporting perspective. Financially, not so much. You can't give an accurate perception based purely on trophies won; that's just silly.

like i said before, it would be good if he (and now you) could actually list the teams that make up the first tier then we could see where you're coming from.

Why would anyone need a list? Everybody knows who the european giants are.

(Milan, Madrid, Barca, Bayern, ManU)

Captain wrote:

Why would anyone need a list? Everybody knows who the european giants are.

(Milan, Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Basel)

Fixed for you

that's why i wanted to see the names. no point in arguing about tiers when only 5 clubs make up your top tier. now if biggus' lists matches yours then arsenal would be in some pretty good company as a mid-tier club or whatever. this only started when it was implied that we're peers with PSV. so i don't even know if you two would be agreeing on the same thing exactly.

As Capi says everyone knows the group of teams where the winner will come from.
Under them you have a group who if circumstances might be right would stand a chance of an upset and Arsenal are among them.
Under these teams are the teams who have no chance of winning it and are only along for the ride imo we're a mid-tier team.

Quite a lopsided table you have there.

Hmm, makes sense if you put it that way. It does, however, disrespect the clubs who have worked hard to fashion themselves as true mid-tier teams, the likes of Everton, for example

Meatwad wrote:

that's why i wanted to see the names. no point in arguing about tiers when only 5 clubs make up your top tier. now if biggus' lists matches yours then arsenal would be in some pretty good company as a mid-tier club or whatever. this only started when it was implied that we're peers with PSV. so i don't even know if you two would be agreeing on the same thing exactly.

Quite, but I would have thought my posts in their entirety had already demonstrated both my point of view and what I agreed on with Biggus. In a nutshell, there are Mega-clubs in europe and we aren't one of them.

Caligula wrote:

Hmm, makes sense if you put it that way. It does, however, disrespect the clubs who have worked hard to fashion themselves as true mid-tier teams, the likes of Everton, for example

Hang on now, Everton are mid-tier PL not mid tier CL which is a step up again.

so neymar... how much are we not going to get him?

Biggus wrote:

Caligula wrote:

Hmm, makes sense if you put it that way. It does, however, disrespect the clubs who have worked hard to fashion themselves as true mid-tier teams, the likes of Everton, for example

Hang on now, Everton are mid-tier PL not mid tier CL which is a step up again.

Comrade, let's settle on upper middle-tier.

Quarter finals it is then........

LOL. Neymar would put us over the top though. He'd come in, take the No. 9 journey from Park Ju-Young, and became an Arsenal hero.

Well then we nor they are top tier.