Shava's back :): Page 8 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Shava's back :)

yuv

That doesn't really challenge the claim that AW is rigid in tactics. It might suggest that it sometimes pays off (which I think is true). He is entirely taken by that idea of "playing our game", and "let the players do it", and thus, what Arsh is saying would not even sound problematic to him ("yea, that's what I do; if you think this is a problem it's because you don't understand" - and biggus is right that no one around him would dare to challenge that).
I don't have that much of a problem with the "let the players" thing, it's the rigidity that looks a bit crazy (inconsistent, etc.). He himself does intervene (and in a big way act against his "way") when it looks important enough (from a rare hair dryer to triple subs, or change of tactics at HT). That rigidity equals a denial of the living nature of the game, and it is a serious disadvantage.

Captain

This is what I was replying to.

Biggus wrote:
Thats why we can never turn around a game that is going against us, the opposition can and sometimes does.

And we did change tactically in the second half against Chelsea and have changed tactically during play in most of our games this season with varying results.

Rex

Capi is right. Wasn't the best of example by Biggus, but it was consistant with his agenda.

Rohit

I had the feeling we are forced to come from behind more often than we like. Apart from United, there isn't another team that has come from behind as much as we have.

We also change a lot during games, not just this season, but have been doing that over years. If anything i thought Wenger was more rigid in our winning years with the two stikers and 4 man midfield with the same shape. Now we often change the shape of our midfield and have also gone from one center forward to two when we are behind.

Claudius

How easy is it for a manager to 'turn around' a game? I only ask because football games are very difficult to control from the bench. It's not like gridiron or basketball where you are constantly drawing up plays, and play occurs in short bursts with more goal-scoring chances and opportunities to exploit mismatches.

Is there a coach who is better than his peers at this, and not just from anecdotal evidence?

Captain

That's a big question!

I hold the belief that a manager can only set up a team to not lose and the winning is in the hands of the players.

yuv

Captain wrote:
This is what I was replying to.

Biggus wrote:
Thats why we can never turn around a game that is going against us, the opposition can and sometimes does.

And we did change tactically in the second half against Chelsea and have changed tactically during play in most of our games this season with varying results.

I'm not committed to saying he can't change tactically (I'm not even one who thinks he lacks tactical nous), but in the context of Shava/rigidity/subs-predetermined, there's much truth in what Shava/Biggus are saying. I think we do have more ability to turn things around (some of it is down to tactics), but the boss himself would readily admit it has much to do with "team spirit" (and thus it remains within "let them work it out themselves").

banduan

it is untrue that Wenger doesn't make tactical changes to try to affect the way a match is progressing.

He just doesn't use his subs to do it. The few instances where he has done tend to be rather surprising.

Biggus

Captain wrote:
Biggus wrote:
Thats pretty apparent, every one of us can pick the time and players to be changed in a game.
Wenger is unable/unwilling to change the course of games once it has started because like all lunatic fanatics in unchallenged power he's surrounded by yes-men and totally convinced of his rightfulness, there is only one way to play- his way, anything else is "anti-football'.
Thats why we can never turn around a game that is going against us, the opposition can and sometimes does.

Chelsea 3 - 5 Arsenal, less than two weeks ago.

That wasn't tactical genius that was a comedy of errors.
And the strangeness of the scoreline emphasises that it's the exception rather than the rule, we've thrown many winning positions away but very rarely do we come back from a losing position to win like say Man Utd do.
Try again Capi.

Mirth

Barcelona.

Captain

😆

mags

Back in the Chelsea/Mourinho days, watching the two managers game day tactics was pure agony for me. AW would wait till the 80th minute to make his first substitution, while Mourinho made his moves like a champion chess player. Now, AW starts at the 60-65 minute. Only took him a few seasons to figure it out.

Rex

It´s not that Wenger is crap at match day tactics, but IMO it isn´t a strength of his.

One move of his that has certainly been instrumental in us winning a few games is how he uses his midfield. When we are man marked at CM Wenger likes to push Song forward and let the other CMs drop deeper. That has more than once resulted in that the opposition has had their DMs right behind their striker, and their most offensive midfielder watching Song right in front of their own back 4.

There are quite a few managers out there that I admire for their ability to change tactics mid game and thus exploiting weaknesses that the opponents show.

Biggus

General Mirth wrote:
Barcelona.

Thats one example from nearly a year ago, so long that I can't remember the exact flow of the game but I'll take your word for it.
As I say the exception which proves the rule.

Captain

Ferguson hasn't changed a game through tactical adjustment since the 90s.

Mirth

Biggus wrote:
General Mirth wrote:
Barcelona.

Thats one example from nearly a year ago, so long that I can't remember the exact flow of the game but I'll take your word for it.
As I say the exception which proves the rule.

Stoke City, 3 weeks ago then. 😆

I don't see what was wrong with the Chelsea game, we were shit awful defensively in the first half but in the second half we were on top of their attack while scoring four goals. If that isn't changing the flow of the game then I don't know what is.

Captain

Stoke City was also a happy accident.

Biggus

Ah so putting on RvP was a tactical stroke of genius was it?
Well we must all be geniuses then because we all called for his inclusion right from the start.
But it took our tactical wizard a while to work that one out.

Captain

Four days earlier against Marseilles in France? 😆

Give it up mate.

Mirth

Biggus wrote:
Ah so putting on RvP was a tactical stroke of genius was it?
Well we must all be geniuses then because we all called for his inclusion right from the start.
But it took our tactical wizard a while to work that one out.

I'm not calling Wenger a tactical genius, it's definitely a weakness in his management but why not give Wenger an iota of credit when he does something right? Doesn't make you a Wenger apologist.

The Stoke game came at a time when RvP had clocked up several minutes and, by his own admission, was feeling the effects of playing more football than any other Arsenal player in 2011.

The end result was that we got 3 points, RvP was well rested and a week later he scored a hattrick at Stamford Bridge which wasn't a comedy of errors when, once again, we changed the game after going in 2-1 down at half time only to concede a wonder goal/deflection in the second and score four in our best performance this year.

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