goon Load management for a 17yr old who cramped up in both league cup games is a little different than a seasoned pro who plays through hamstring injuries.

daredevil I'd imagine Nwaneri being 17 and White being 27 has something to do with the different approaches being taken.

Thanks mates, no doubt without your help I'd be incapable of understanding this incredibly obvious point.

Meanwhile @daredevil you seem to have missed mine, which is that Ben White's situation demonstrates that managing player workloads isn't something that is always at the forefront of Arteta's concerns and he isn't always right when it comes to load management (note the qualification) because he's got other factors to be worried about.

You guys can be superbly obtuse. We're talking about Mikel Arteta, a football manager with a well-earned reputation for burning players out and practising a low rate of rotation.

flobaba Bringing him in replace Odegaard (and Saka - he was hurt too) is a huge risk.

No one has suggested that he replace anyone.

Suggesting Nwaneri should preferentially get half an hour to relieve (not replace) our starters is all that's been said. Nwaneri's shown himself to a highly effective, difference-making option off the bench this season. His body's young but he can handle half an hour of competitive football once or twice a week.

Forest was just further evidence we could've seen more of him.

Right, no body is saying that, but If those two were healthy, and we were top or closer to top of the league, there would likely be much less of a demand / need to see more of Nwaneri, outside of situations where we are cruising.

Chelsea 1–1, 2–2 Liverpool, Bournemouth 2–0, 1–1 Brighton. These are probably the league matches where we've dropped points this season and it could've been beneficial to see more of Nwaneri on the pitch. Brighton being a bit tough of course due to Rice's made-up red card.

And in many matches we didn't even create much chances and dont look like scoring till Nwaneri came on and we immediately looked a different team. There's no 2 ways about it.

flobaba Right, no body is saying that, but If those two were healthy, and we were top or closer to top of the league, there would likely be much less of a demand / need to see more of Nwaneri, outside of situations where we are cruising.

Funnily enough, I think if both are healthy, we see more of Nwaneri. I said this a few weeks ago. That our injuries have been detrimental to Nwaneri. You want a safe environment for a kid. One where he can benefit from a stable team that’s operating well. Think of Fabregas. He played with a full invincible squad around him. It creates a platform for the kid to express themselves and a safety net for mistakes. So I suspect we see more of the guy because the conditions will be more enabling.

Clrnc Nwaneri came on and we immediately looked a different team

This is it. He's consistently looked dynamic and dangerous when subbed on. We might have a handful more points if he'd been used more on these occasions.

"The science is in" and he must now be used more. The load management and protection argument sounds pretty bogus when we're talking about 30 minutes a week.

As for demanding Nwaneri wins us matches being unfair, I doubt anyone would view it that way. I do agree throwing him on as 10 men in the second half versus City would've been rather dumb.

From a results perspective I'd rather we hold aspirations for a kid who looks like exploding than make justified demands of Sterling who doesn't look like stepping up.

Burnwinter

No need to get snappy. No one, including Arteta, has said it's in the forefront. Technically it was second on his list.

If winning matches is first, he should play. If it isn't, then I guess it's fine that he doesn't.

Burnwinter This is it. He's consistently looked dynamic and dangerous when subbed on. We might have a handful more points if he'd been used more on these occasions.

....protection argument sounds pretty bogus when we're talking about 30 minutes a week.

Personally these two comments are contradictory to me. The fact that fans (myself included) want to use a 17yr old to turn things around for us tells me expectations are sky high.

He came on with 30 mins to go against Newcastle (before the likes of Zinchenko, Partey, Jesus, Sterling etc) and struggled to do anything bar a late turn and shot on goal from 30 yards. That's probably far more likely to be the norm unless he's genuinely a generational world class talent, because it's only in the remit of a very select few to be able to have that sort of extended impact on games.

QuincyAbeyie.
@RocktheCasbah recommended Clive Palmer’s podcast from yesterday. I just took a listen now. And Clive, an amateur coach, makes a lot of sense. Basically says the following

• Arteta has integrated Nwaneri into the senior team for the last two years now. So he knows him well.
• Each time Nwaneri has started, he’s come off with cramps. He’s started one game and finished, and it was against League 1 team (which makes sense given the physical gap between league 1 and premier league players)
• Clive also says he thinks having Saka and Odegaard around to take care of Nwaneri will give more minutes due to foundation they create. He said young players’ confidence is fragile and you don’t want to expose them to a chaotic team.
• etc.

The arguments he laid out make much more sense than “choosing not to play Nwaneri is choosing not to win”

goon No need to get snappy.

Look, it is a relatively minor point and my snappiness was proportionate. I don't need a couple of non-idiotic interlocutors omitt-splaining basic facts to me.

To me "Arteta knows" doesn't quite stack up as far as this question goes. It seems to me there's been a couple of average match day decisions made due either to poor judgement or a lack of courage / dressing room influence.

I'm a simple soul. What's done is done up to now, but I am convinced we'd benefit from using Nwaneri a bit more from here. If we do bring him in and I'm proven soundly wrong by bad errors or poor performances I'll wear it. If we don't and the alternatives are shit I will be predictably annoying.

goon Personally these two comments are contradictory to me. The fact that fans (myself included) want to use a 17yr old to turn things around for us tells me expectations are sky high.

Nope. Those two comments are not contradictory. I already made myself clear in the final paragraph of the post you're quoting. Expectations would and should not be based on comparison between Nwaneri and a fantasy match-winner. Instead they would be between Nwaneri and the actually existing alternatives in our squad.

Does anyone expect Jesus or Sterling to start pulling up trees out on the right at the moment? No. So on what basis would we expect too much from Nwaneri if he's preferred to them?

Burnwinter Arteta isn't infallible, but I trust him to manage a kid's growth given that we've managed Saka and Martinelli. He also has significantly more context than any of us here.

As a basic example, go to the hour before he Forest game and look at the complaints about the starting line-up. All the same guys who complain that Arteta doesn't rotate enough were the first one to complain that THIS SPECIFIC GAME was not the one to rotate. So when should we rotate to meet the gold standard of minutes for everyone? Oh, that rotated team won comfortably btw.

Clrnc except managing a football club (particularly managing for the long-term) isn't as binary a decision-making process. Suggesting it's that simple isn't a reflection of reality

Don Pacifico not sure if I get you but if the alternative is playing Mustafi or Kolalsinac as a CB you are sacrificing results.

Burnwinter Look, it is a relatively minor point and my snappiness was proportionate. I don't need a couple of non-idiotic interlocutors omitt-splaining basic facts to me.

They're all basic facts but I'm going to guess this has more to do with daredevils tone than me.

Burnwinter

And whatever you and others say, the very nature of coming on with 30 mins to go when you need a goal to save your premier league title campaign is a big burden to bear. As is expecting him to have a bigger impact, rightly or wrongly, than guys like Jesus, Sterling, Trossard, Kai and Martinelli, who were all being abused as not doing nearly enough.

Once again to be clear, I don't think earlier subs would be the end of the world and would have liked to see it myself. But I'm taking that those explanations at face value and I don't think it's as ludicrous to do so as being suggested.

goon his age has got nothing to do with anything. If there's a 15 year old Messi regen that's way better than a 38 year old Saka for example it would be negligent not to play the better player.

Claudius Saka was not managed by him at all. In fact Saka was brought into the team before his time. Martinelli was played way more before he came as well.

Claudius I didn't say it's choosing not to win. Are you doing this on purpose?