Coombs yeah it's a wild way to view voting. its like the 'all trump voters are racist bigots' line of thinking which has been so derided over the years. in reality, all people might just be hoping for is domestic policies that improve and don't actively hinder their lives. people sitting the whole thing out based on a moral stance didn't work out so well in 2016, and had long lasting impacts on the judiciary that would hamper policy for decades. these are the tangible things that are on the line that the average American voter cant 'put on hold' until a conflict thousands of miles away is resolved

    mdgoonah41 and i want my LGBTQ friends to not get erased from existence.

    Gay people in the US aren't going to be exterminated if Trump gets in. Real people in Palestine are being exterminated right now.

    This is what boils my blood. The complete overstating of some imagined future in America vs the reality for Palestinians now.

        Qwiss so let me ask you a question, and hopefully you'll provide me with a good faith response. what should i do? i should not vote in november, since both parties are evil. then, trump will win pennsylvania and get back in office. he will take things in an even more radical direction supporting israel and wipe palestinians off the map. he'll also halt all aid to ukraine, and further egg on authoritarian dictators to take more liberties and commit atrocities. not to mention what hes going to do here to move to eliminate free and fair elections and democracy as a whole.

            Thunk you both have valid points tbh. Both parties are effectively fucking things up in other parts of the world and in an ideal world you'd have another option to vote for. However if both are fucking things up for the rest of the world regardless, and you're going to be stuck with one of them either way, it makes sense to vote for who will at least somewhat (better) serve your own interests domestically.

            Only way choosing to not vote will somehow work out with any result other than with one of the two in charge is if enough people choose not to vote that it forces electoral reform. And if those numbers were able to be readily mobilised then not voting wouldn't be the answer but rather finding a 3rd option they'd be comfortable voting for that serves their intersts both domestically and internationally, but that doesn't look likely to happen in the near future.

            It's crazy to think in 2024 we're stuck with either the Tories or Starmer led Labour, the US with either Trump or the Dems with most of Europe trending even further to the right, but it's the world we live in. Kind of depressing to think we are headed backwards to the early to mid 20th century.

              Qwiss not exterminated, but alot of their rights will be 'given back to the states to decide', and we all know what that means. thats not imagined, its part of their agenda. can't hate people for voting their interests.

                  mdgoonah41 going out sad. he speaks on a few interesting things that neither mainstream candidate does, such as calling out reforms for food quality and being a vocal critic of citizens united. I remember around 10 years ago he was also calling out republicans phony concerns about election integrity as veiled attempts at voter disenfranchisement for minorities. the democrats have been suing him in a number of states to keep off the ballot so I'd wager that's why he's endorsing trump. that, and they told him to kick rocks when he asked for a position in the next administration

                      Gazza M hes a dangerous anti-vax lunatic, which i think is mostly why hes been shunned by dems. he was going to pull way more votes from trump than from harris, so i think him staying on the ballot in battleground states would have def hurt trump way more

                        Big Willie Only way choosing to not vote will somehow work out with any result other than with one of the two in charge is if enough people choose not to vote that it forces electoral reform.

                        As you've pointed out, the unravelling of the political class is happening across Europe and arguably across the world with a few exceptions so electoral reform is a nice to have but not likely to lead to a dramatic difference in outcomes all else being equal.

                          Qwiss I feel what you're saying, but even you must see how naive/impractical your stance is. If you follow it to the next logical step which is you don't vote for either, guess what? Genocide still happens. And so whether you're American or not, genocide is happening on your watch. And since you, sitting over there, pontificating are not doing anything about it, or can't do anything about it, you're similarly responsible.

                            mdgoonah41 I would like more people to withhold their vote from the democrats until it becomes too costly for them to keep supporting Israel. If you follow the "blue no matter who" line they'll never change. If an ongoing genocide can't motivate people to take a stand I'm not sure anything will.

                            Gazza M can't hate people for voting their interests.

                            Republicans vote in their interests too. Tories vote in their interests. That excuse only goes so far.

                                  Qwiss this is a big misunderstanding of American empire and global militarism. America is not going to stop supporting Israel. And Americans have a very different view of the world from people outside. There are so many facets of American life that deeply tied to empire including the role of military, propaganda, and Israel plays an important role in Middle Eastern positioning. So neither party will abandon Israel.
                                  Withholding votes for this purpose will be a marginal exercise that could only benefit republicans.

                                      Claudius No one is expecting the US to cut ties with Israel or to threaten them militarily but if Reagan was able to call Menachem Begin and stop bombing in Beirut in 82 then Biden/Harris can do the same now. Thats not a big ask.

                                        Qwiss okay, i follow this, but the problem is that if dems are a 3/10 on the sympathy scale for palestinians/muslims, republicans are a -10 out of 10. trump will make the crisis in the middle east 10 times worse. he loves netanyahu and will let him do whatever he wants. most congressional republicans are in lock step with trump on israel, them accumulating more power is not going to help gaza or the palestinians at all

                                        there is a pretty big gap between how biden feels about israel/palestine and how harris feels, imo. from what ive read, shes been pushing behind the scenes to try and get biden to move faster and push harder on israel and get the cease fire agreed to. some of that is opportunism because it will help her campaign, no doubt, but biden is a lot closer to the right on israel than most of the democratic party

                                            mdgoonah41

                                            You can bet that Netanyahu will be praying Trump and the Republicans get in, and that tells you all you need to know.

                                            Biden has been awful on this issue, incredibly weak, and I could semi-understand if someone felt like a protest vote was necessary. Harris at least offers some hope of taking a tougher stance just by being someone different. Unfortunately that’s all we have right now, and Palestinians don’t really have the luxury of waiting 5+ years to see what impact (likely nothing positive), a protest vote will have on their fortunes.

                                              Trump doesn't like Netanyahu personally. Thats well documented but he'll still give Israel his full throated support. Just like Biden does now, apparently also dislikes Bibi. And Kamala will be the exact same as genocide Joe.

                                              no US president likes him because he constantly throws it in their face that all he has to do is make a call to AIPAC and both sides of congress will be voting unanimously to condemn you.

                                              mdgoonah41
                                              This man is worth billions, yet here we are. His greed innovation knows no bounds.