jones enduring is what matters,if he gets fully welcomed back to the fold and sanctions are dropped as US seen to want 3 years it's a price worth paying for invading a neighbour.

    jones NATO is already undermined, does anyone believe that it would respond to an incursion on its eastern flank. Nearly 60 years of post war peace was based on the fact that was true. I don't think you could be confident of that right now and you can bet Putin would be thinking. What would that actually do. From the west's response to the recent crisis they will be annoyed but nothing of consequence.

        awooga83 — I think it depends who you’re referencing on the Eastern front.

        Poland being invaded would certainly trigger a response - partly because they’ve invested enough in their defenses/army that they wouldn’t need as much support. NATO as an organization, and its countries individually, would be far more bullish on a positive outcome which in turn makes support easier to sell and more compelling on the backside.

        I do fully agree with you though that the Baltic countries may not be afforded that same support. An invasion of those countries would require NATO fighting back by forcibly attacking within Russia which is a far greater step than supporting defensive operations.

        Hungary is another possible inflection point. Russia’s “invasion” there would more likely be via political influence, and softer actions, but would how would NATO (and the EU) respond to that tampering and potentially internal encouragement?

            MistaT Russia owns Hungary for 20 years now. why would they attack them? And how? If they don't get all of Ukraine, and I don't think they will

                Poland and the Baltics are members of NATO, the other members are formally committed to reacting as if they are directly attacked. Trump may refuse to do so, but the treaty commitment was ratified by the Senate, which makes it part of "the supreme Law of the land".
                Putin's first goal is to conquer as much Ukrainian territory as possible and incorporate it into Russia. His second goal is to make sure that whatever remains of Ukraine cannot join NATO as Poland did.

                HomeSteak -- I'm with you, and well aware of Russia's current influence.

                I was responding to awooga and suggesting that while NATO may have postulated a standard (universal) response if a member was attacked, it's quite apparent that the response will not be standardized.

                    MistaT recognize they don't need to do anything in hungry financially and as you said I don't mean a country like Poland. It's the Baltics I think he would be looking to test and I don't think it's as clear today what would happen in reality. Putin has operated on he takes these actions knowing the west is sluggish and often takes time to respond which then makes it hard to actually do anything.

                      JazzG public debt can be eliminated in one year with a relatively limited but progressive capital tax. Even a one time tax. There is no need to gut the government. That's just what the billionaires who steal your money want you to believe.

                      • Daz likes this.

                        HomeSteak yeah this a scam and will become a front for blatant money laundering

                          meanwhile, at a democrats consultancy retreat

                          basically, run kamalas campaign again but with a white guy at the top of the ticket. 'move away from the dominance of small donors' is such a huge tell. trashbag party that repeatedly learns all the wrong lessons. they deserve to keep losing.

                            Gazza M it works. It’s an admission that after half a century of the Cold War and centuries of slavery, this is a fundamentally right leaning country. Etched in its psyche. Win within that context unless you plan a revolution.

                                if there's even functional elections in 26/28 and the democrats somehow Mr magoo themselves back into power, it will snap right back to the populists and rabble-rousers in short order.

                                Claudius if you keep moving the Democrats to the right the Republicans also move to the right and you get what we have now with Trump, Musk and co.

                                    Gazza M If the Democrats went looking for the votes of two in three citizens who heard about the UnitedHealthcare assassin and thought "Yeah I get why you'd do that", they'd be in better shape.

                                    It's not enough to wait for Trump to get sent packing, the next candidate to oppose the phalanx of fascist meltdown needs a plan, a mandate and a battalion of picks to replace the Hegseths and Bonginos going into office now.

                                    Speaking of not having a mandate, Starmer recording nett negative approval, and a majority of UK voters thinking Labour is incompetent just six months after their victory, tells you how that goes.

                                      Qwiss I hear what you’re saying. I just don’t think Americans think of concepts of equity the way we might. All this stuff runs counter to the American dream. It’s not coincidental that the US should be the place that generates so many billionaires - and the same people who can’t afford medical services will openly say don’t tax the billionaires more because they’ve earned it. You have to break a lot of beliefs of what it means to be American for a Bernie type to garner enough votes to win

                                          I've been an anti-imperialist since I was a little university Marxist in the late 1990s. Feels bizarre to me that I go on Twitter and it's full of Silicon Valley MAGA fascists saying how unfair it is the United States pays for 70% of NATO.

                                          I want the war in Ukraine to end as soon as possible, but backing Ukraine into a very difficult spot and giving Russia a freer hand in negotiations won't help with that.

                                          I've got plenty of sympathy for Ukrainians who've been walked into a Russian massacre by NATO nations and are now having the rug pulled.