awooga83 Afghanistan is the only war that fits the description and that wasn't Russia, it was the Soviet Union - the conversation was regarding post Cold War. Syria the Russians were actually there with a mandate under international law and "numerous African conflicts" I'm not sure if you appreciate the reason why Russia or Russian mercenaries were ever called in there.

I've no relation to Russia, they as any other country with the means to do so will abuse it and commit horrendous atrocities - we were friends with a Chechen family back in the day and I vividly remember the images coming from there in my childhood. That doesn't mean that what Russia under Putin have done is even remotely comparable to the pain and strife the US have rained on the planet in the last four decades.

jones but...but....in Europe, jones. Europe!

Coombs remember these?

Coombs this shit drives me insane. I'm happy to take in Ukrainian refugees but in Ireland we've given them way more rights than all other refugees and its fucking nuts.

awooga83 What is surprising to me is Russia are in a very weak position, if Trump just turned around and said he is gonna support Ukraine they'd probably come to the table themselves. They can't sustain this much longer but despite that Trump seems more desperate than the Russians to end it.

JazzG -- because Trump wants credit and material benefit for ending it. If it ends because Russia's offensive collapses, then Trump won't benefit as Ukraine will regain power (and "rights") over its land, resources, and future. He also can't double down on support after decrying it for so long in his campaign.

jones distract from an actual order that exists called international law.

Yeah we both know none of the super powers in this world will give two shits about International law when it suits them.

MistaT He also can't double down on support after decrying it for so long in his campaign.

It wouldn't be the first time he did a U turn on anything, guy has free PR on social media and they'll just twist anything he does to say "Art of the deal"...

awooga83 Also UK needs to lean into Europe as you said the world had changed plucky little Britain is weak on our own we are going to need to be part of a European response to the new world order.

Plucky little Britain needs to ally itself with strong countries not a bunch of countries who are a bigger joke than us when it comes to military spending. Europe so far does not look like it is about to get its act in order anytime soon.

Now it's Steve Bannon who takes his turn to do a Roman salute on stage at the CPAC conference, to cheers from the gathered crowd of fascists.

jones I mean I will disagree on that what the Russians did in Syria is pretty horrific they prolonged a civil war resulting in many thousands of deaths and were involved in directly killing civilians. Okay Assad called them in but I'm not sure that makes it any better personally then any Western actions and the Assad government would have collapsed without their help. Similarly in Africa they were plundering resources and certainly not acting in the wider people's interests but it seems we'll disagree on this aspect.

I'm not saying the west aren't hypocrites they absolutely are just that Russia are not any different really any international law is meaningless if the world and the big powers don't enforce it and none of them have been. Russia started to murder dissidents in the UK under Putin which is a pretty big deviation from the previous post cold war period. I think that is a marked change and I don't know there are example of the US murdering dissidents like that? How was international law able to be implemented in that case as well?

US trans people who've had their gender legally changed for a decade or more are finding they're being issued replacement passports with their gender assigned at birth marked. Land of the free.

Coombs fair although I meant it hasn't killed US nationals in the way Russia has killed and attempted to kill Russians overseas. But your right it's defined it's enemies and taking those unacceptable actions of torture.

awooga83 we will disagree on what Russia does in Africa because to be honest it doesn't seem you know very well what they're doing there. Their presence there is because the people of the Sahel were sick of French corporations exploiting their resources for decades and leaving them with none of the riches and a ruined environment.

jones I wouldn't profess to know everything about the situation or dispute French exploitation. But from what I read about Russia's activities there, I don't think they have acted in a positive way and have been involved in indiscriminate killing, looting and or also exploiting natural resources. My argument is not the west is better but Russia also aren't doing good in these foreign interventions.

The west is better. That's why people come to the west, and flee Russia.

the stupdity of the EU is that Trump is presenting them with the political out to break out of the US hegemony but instead they insist on being the cheese eating surrender monkeys.

Burnwinter I don't really know who this guy is but skimming through the post cold war observations are not unreasonable that the US just presumed everything is going to be great and didn't take time to help Russia navigate that difficult moment. But I don't really believe this idea of just saying Ukraine won't join NATO changes Putin's views who published his own paper explaining why Ukraine was not a legitimate country and was created by the Soviet union and had no right to be autonomous.