CL/EL/ECL 2023-2024: Page 26 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

CL/EL/ECL 2023-2024

Burnwinter

goon Not a single fan I’ve ever spoken to wanted more CL group stage games that they’ll feel obliged to pay £80 to attend.

I'm not in favour of gouging, but aren't tickets scarce enough other fans will jump on them if these fans give their wallets a little break?

daredevil

Clrnc

It's hard to consider a league as the best in the world when two of the top 5 GOATs reigned supreme in a rival league for almost a decade. Part of what makes something the best is having the best teams and best players play there. It's like a boxing promotion claiming it's the best whilst Mike Tyson and Muhammad Ali are boxing elsewhere.

I'm not saying the PL doesn't have a claim and there are justifiable reasons for that to be the case. But nobody gives a shit about the competitiveness between 4th and 20th or that Forest have more spending power than Villareal. People want to see Kylian Mbappe and Jude Bellingham or Zidane and Ronaldo or Messi and Cristiano. These guys all played or will play in Spain, not England.

Clrnc

daredevil I'm not saying the PL doesn't have a claim and there are justifiable reasons for that to be the case. But nobody gives a shit about the competitiveness between 4th and 20th or that Forest have more spending power than Villareal. People want to see Kylian Mbappe and Jude Bellingham or Zidane and Ronaldo or Messi and Cristiano. These guys all played or will play in Spain, not England.

I interpret the idea of the best league as the most competitive 20 teams, with the best stadiums and best fans. Clearly England is.

If the definition of best league is just having the best team and the best players in Europe there, then when one day PSG is all conquering with all the best players playing there can that one team league of France be considered one?

Burnwinter

daredevil It's hard to consider a league as the best in the world when two of the top 5 GOATs reigned supreme in a rival league for almost a decade.

Thought experiment: would Messi and Ronaldo have found the conditions to produce their excellence tougher at top clubs in England? Ronaldo tore it up at United, but I reckon both would have found it harder over time.

daredevil

QuincyAbeyie

Parkinson's Law.

flobaba

Messi would have chewed up and spat out the premier league, easily. Ronaldo did, Suarez did until he left. Messi would have been as dominant if not more.

Burnwinter

flobaba Messi would have been as dominant if not more.

Messi once scored 50 goals in La Liga. Messi is football's greatest player and the comparison crosses different eras and leagues, but I can't accept peak Messi as a full 20 goals superior goalscorer to peak Henry (30 goals in the Invincibles season).

Likewise Ronaldo reached 31 league goals in England, but eventually ascended to record 48 in Spain.

I'd suggest the dominance of Barca and Madrid afforded these greats certain luxuries unavailable in England as far as the use of their energy.

daredevil

Burnwinter

Haaland scored 36 league goals last season. If Messi or C. Ronaldo played in England during their peak, they'd have a team setup to get the best out of them and would get better numbers than that, IMO.

Here's a fun fact, Messi has scored a whopping 27 goals against the PL top 6.

Claudius

Peak Ronaldo and Messi are unlike any other players out there. They would’ve chewed up this league, especially on a team like City. Always helps to be on a great team like that. You just have to see the attacking threats both Kai and Declan are this season versus last season at their respective mid-table teams.

Clrnc

Claudius you know what? Was watching Messi over the weekend and he still produced some unbelievable stuffs at his current age.

He will probably still score 20 goals and have 20 assist at his current age in PL in a team setup to get the best out of him. Would love him here even now

flobaba

Eh, Burnwinter knows better. He's using the Henry comparison to taint the conversation with bias and emotion. No disrespect to our great man to say that he was a level below Ronaldo. And Ronaldo, despite his goal scoring, in my opinion is a level below Messi. We are talking best footballer to ever play the game here.

RocktheCasbah

flobaba Eh, Burnwinter knows better. He's using the Henry comparison to taint the conversation with bias and emotion. No disrespect to our great man to say that he was a level below Ronaldo

I always thought of the Ronaldo/ Messi debate a bit like the one Arsenal fans used to have about Henry and Bergkamp. In that who you preferred essentially came down to whether you prized physical prowess over imagination and flair. But over time I realised that was essentially a bit unfair on Thierry, because whilst his main gift was his searing pace, he had enough imagination and flair to compete with anyone. Even Dennis.

Which is to say I think ranking him a level below Ronaldo is mad. Thierry could do everything Ronaldo could, but he also scored goals I never saw from Ronaldo.

Obviously, I am absolutely not going to argue about Messi!

Burnwinter

flobaba Eh, Burnwinter knows better. He's using the Henry comparison to taint the conversation with bias and emotion.

Well, let's refine the thought experiment a bit to sort out these problems of bias and emotion.

Take two fine Arsenal seasons, 03–04 and 23–24. Take peak 2011–12 Messi (La Liga 50 goals) and peak 2014–15 Ronaldo (La Liga 48 goals).

How many Premier League goals does each of peak Messi and peak Ronaldo score if he:

Replaces Van Nistelrooy at 03–04 United?
Replaces Haaland at 23–24 City?

Let's say each makes 37 league appearances in both seasons (the same as Thierry in 03–04). Put some numbers on it and calibrate the exercise, for curiosity's sake.

Tam

flobaba Some things, even if we could all agree to generally accept them to be true, are best left unsaid.

flobaba

Clrnc yup. He'd still be something special to behold even now.

Claudius

Clrnc he’s still really smart - just a brilliant mind - but the defending in MLS is Sunday league. Ronaldo also has 50 goals this season from facing clowns

flobaba

Clrnc

Claudius he will still easily start for us though. The goat

QuincyAbeyie

If it's possible to mean both that Messi is the greatest of all time and that the quality of a league is decided by more than it's very best players, I'm jumping on that.

Qwiss

Even if we accept the Messi and Ronaldo thing its years since they were in La Liga. At the time La Liga was widely considered the best league and had the best coefficient. Now the PL attracts the big stars and has the best co-efficient. Barca don't even have much pull nowadays and the leagues starting to look like the German league with Real becoming Bayern in terms of being the only really attractive destination for the top players in Spain.

Claudius

Qwiss and even then, look at Real’s lineup. They have stars they bought a decade ago. And then a bunch of teenagers they paid a lot of money for. It’s not the same galactico business we grew accustomed to over the years.

Pepe LeFrits

Think Ronaldo heralded the increased optimisation of football - output monsters are becoming very common now

Qwiss

Clrnc he wasn't great at PSG. Its one thing pissing about on sub championship players in MLS and another playing in the PL week in week out. If Messi was still able to play for one of the best teams in a top European league he would.

« Previous Page Next Page »