Kai Havertz: Page 18 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Kai Havertz

goon

The funny thing is Ode has largely struggled to make an impact in the first couple of games and it has received next to no scrutiny.

Granted, he’s tried to be more bold and proactive, but that’s after spending the last couple of years getting comfortable. He used to be accused of exactly the same thing back in his first year, hiding, playing it safe etc.

Relax, stop fretting after two games and enjoy seeing how he develops. He’s got bags of potential so there’s every chance he could turn out to be brilliant. If not, so be it, it’s not a big deal. In the meantime he’s leading the team in both duels and distance covered in the first two games, so hardly a liability.

Sicario2 - Tier 1

Lol it is a big deal when he’s our second biggest transfer of the summer. We are not Man City to have a conveyor belt of players. We need to get transfers like Havertz spot on due to the opportunity cost.

Ode and Havertz is a weak example mate, they are like chalk and cheese.

Ode has a body of 3 years solid work to bank on , he’s like our best or at worst second best player. He has earnt the right to have a few off games and even then I thought he was amazing v Man City and good v Forrest.

Havertz has a long way to go to even mention him in the same sentence as our skipper.

goon

Sicario2 - Tier 1

That's the point of the comparison. We know what he can do but he has struggled to make his mark on games, so maybe give the new guy some time for both him find his feet as well as the team to settle down. Especially when he hasn't been bad, just average.

GooneriC

I think he's a nothing player and a colossal waste of money which should have been used to get a CF .

Burnwinter

Big Willie That's a lot of the same stuff that used to be said about Ozil way back when to justify that he wasn't lazy.

Yeah, the comparison I'd make is to (Abou) Diaby who's closer in height and also faced accusations of being lazy and unfocused. Meanwhile our own players would say he was the most difficult guy they'd ever faced one on one. Don't underestimate what four or six inches means when you're fighting for the ball with a guy all day, or wondering if you're going to get your wings clipped for taking Martinelli out of the game one too many times.

Havertz is doing well so far, there's a slight brutish, chaotic factor with him on the pitch when sometimes we'd run the risk of looking like synchronised swimmers last season.

daredevil

How many of his winning duels were due to the team hitting long passes into him to contest, in which case he would invariably have the highest in the team?

Even when he does win high balls, his technique isn't clean like a Toney or Haaland and the team often has to contest again to secure possession.

I think DKF nailed it in that I was expecting something that he just doesn't seem to be. People wanted someone more creative and decisive in the final third and we've got ourselves what appears on paper another Dirk Kuyt.

My brother is a Chelsea fan and going from Lamps/Hazard and Drogba/Costa to Mount and Havertz was one of my greatest pleasures and how they won the CL is looking increasingly more astounding. His take was Havertz appears to do a whole lot without actually doing a whole lot.

JazzG

daredevil R.Madrid and Arsenal were in for Havertz this window, I'd take their opinion on players more seriously than Chelsea fans. Chelsea have also been a fucking joke for most of his time there.

DiabyKungFu

JazzG R.Madrid and Arsenal were in for Havertz this window

Bayern and Man City too, allegedly.

JazzG

DiabyKungFu Didn't know about Man City but yeah forgot about Bayern.

Arteta clearly trusts the player which is why he is getting picked. I get people would like to see Trossard or ESR there, in attacking sense they'll add more but for clearly for Arteta Havertz fits the tactical plan better.

QuincyAbeyie

Any player coming here would necessarily have Arsenal in for him, doesn't mean we can't make bad signings.

And I'm not saying Havertz is one.

Sicario2 - Tier 1

JazzG

The problem is Arteta also trusted Willian until an injury forced his hand.

Burnwinter

Sicario2 - Tier 1 The once unwanted Arteta who unexpectedly backed the once unwanted Xhaka to the hilt, converting the Albanian hothead into a left 8 with whom you were unfavourably comparing Havertz, like, three posts ago ...

By steady allusion to both a player and manager who've been widely re-evaluated, it's as if you've mounted a proof by contradiction that it's dumb to judge Havertz by his Chelsea record.

JazzG

Sicario2 - Tier 1 True but does that mean we have to question his every decision now? Willian was bought in at time of turmoil and when money was tight, clearly didn't work out.

Don Pacifico

This thread is going to be the busiest thread in the forum for the foreseeable future, isn't it?

Doc

Don Pacifico
Don't think anyone here is happy that his current performance is enough to be a regular starter for the rest of the season... Expectation is that he improves with game time/fitness/team knowledge.

Keen to see what he will be like when Jesus is back (or Trossard @ 9). You hear a lot about his runs into the box.. similar to Martinellli his game may also suffer with a traditional 9.

viennacoup

Not just Arteta, he was always first on the team sheet with Chelsea and Germany. Ran the most distance in the last 2 games, won the most duels and defending from the front and also at the back. He stole the ball in the first half which then ran to Nkatieh who hit the post with it. When we were down to 10, everyone up front were subbed except him. I feel he is underrated.

QuincyAbeyie

JazzG I'm happy not to doubt every decision just because of Willian, but I'm also happy to base my opinions on what I think about the players myself rather than "Arteta knows better than us".

I generally think it's a silly thing to do in football discussions since every PL manager, even the ones we ridicule on a daily basis, have a much better CV than any of us.

awooga83

I include the Chelsea because it's the most recent evidence we have for him as a player. It may be that Chelsea was really bad for him or he just didn't live up to his potential. You can say the cleats Chelsea period doesn't count but it is proof of what he's delivered.

For me I'm not going to judge him on two games but what I've seen in the two games is pretty consistent with what I saw whilst he was at Chelsea. So at the moment it doesn't look like he's going to break it from that performance. He looked like a player that I didn't get what his breast position was and certainly didn't feel we needed him.

I don't think we can use the argument if previous interests or whether arsenal are infallible. A clear example is we wanted Mudryk. For all that we look at Chelsea we were going to bring him in for serious money and that could easily be us as well. So I don't think you can say we picked good players so they must always be right forever.

goon

QuincyAbeyie

Agree with the sentiment, but for me it's I think it's more a case of Arteta knowing what he wants from his system and the player. It makes it far more likely that the player succeeds.

JazzG

QuincyAbeyie The manager has other credible options and despite that is choosing Havertz despite some of our fans already calling him a flop. Some in the media have already called him a flop and I think some of our fans have already decided the same.

Like I said previously he needs to boost his attacking numbers and do better in that respect. We didn't pay £60m+ just for some hustle in midfield but that will take time. Not easy coming into a new set up and playing a completely new role. I think by the end of the season once he is used to the other players and vice versa we'll see what he is about.

Clrnc

goon He has been wrong plenty of times though, especially when someone he really wants joins another club and flops there and then he gets praise for his 2nd choice succeeding here when it's more luck than anything

goon

Clrnc

how do you know those 'flops' wouldn't have succeeded here? Seems far more likely to me that they're good players that made bad moves rather than we're just getting lucky.

It's the same reason why low profile players end up looking class at City.

And that's precisely my point, Havertz is far more likely to succeed here than Chelsea because he's been signed specifically by a manager who has plans for him, rather than just being lumped up top by a manager who didn't buy him, while the rest of the team burns around him.

Burnwinter

Clrnc especially when someone he really wants joins another club and flops there and then he gets praise for his 2nd choice succeeding

At least a few of those players would've done very well here. Lisandro Martinez would be going brilliantly here for example. Mudryk is an interesting one though, I can't imagine him being better than Trossard here.

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