Arsenal v Brighton Sunday May 14th 1630 PM GMT: Page 3 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Arsenal v Brighton Sunday May 14th 1630 PM GMT

Doc

yuppa but holding the space is hardly a massive blunder..

It's not a massive blunder, don't really care about the goal... Everyone in the team makes mistakes.. it is to do with the fact that he effects the way we play as a team.. We cant squeeze the space and put massive pressure on the opposition which is essential to our game ... I'm not scapgoating Holding for it if anything it's more the managers fault for not changing things tactically to accommodate this when we have had to play him.. Hard to do that on the fly at the business end of the season... We fundamentally play a style of play that does not suit him unfortunately.

Anyway I've been a massive supporter of Holding in general up until this season where it has become evident that he does not suit our style. Wouldn't actually mind him staying being 5th choice and coming on in a 3AB when we are 'holding' on as it suits him plus he has a positive influence off field on the team...

Not every criticism of a player is scapegoating.......

goon

Yeah, citing someone having a negative impact isn't blaming them, excusing others or saying those mistakes were inevitable.

But the reality is if we can acknowledge that Saliba has had a transformative impact on how we play and those around him then it follows that the same would be true if you put someone in there who's unsuitable for our style of play.

Burnwinter

goon Yeah, citing someone having a negative impact isn't blaming them

Any way you spin it, if bringing in your fourth string centre half for several weeks isn't a noticeable step down then he'd better be 18 years old, otherwise you might have a bit of a coaching problem.

Clrnc

Yeah, I am of the opinion we made a mistake starting Holding over Kiwior but the Ramsdale error was really just... Ramsdale. There's absolutely no reason why he should pass it straight to the Southampton player. No arsenal player was near the ball in that area than the 2 Southampton players.

Burnwinter

Clrnc the Ramsdale error was really just... Ramsdale

You would have to have one of those "agenda" things we sometimes talk about on OMITT to blame that on Rob … or just be the average football Twitter type I guess.

Qwiss

goon There's a stat going around too that our defensive line dropped significantly when he came into the team too, which impacts how compact the side can be.

I'd like to see that broken down more TBH. For instance the times before and after Liverpool and WHUs first goals. My impression is that we dropped deep not because of Holding but because we got nervous and went into our shell.

goon

Qwiss

Yeah that occurred to me too. But then you also had this going around comparing two specific games, not sure if it's a useful comparison though. Not sure where to find it for each game.

Either way I think it also meets the eye test. There have been bigger gaps and someone pointed out when Holding first came into the side, Gabriel and White were playing more conservatively too.

Qwiss

Doc the Walcott goal? We were still moving up the pitch when the ball was lost. That had nothing to do with how high our line was or how we press because we hadn't reached where our line was.

Qwiss

Before Holding came into the team loads of people, especially the usual twitter twits were saying he was going to make massive mistakes like against Spurs last year and cost us. When he didn't no one on here was really blaming Holding, I made a joke to someone, I think Clrnc that the twitter guys would come up with something soon. The next few days they invented all these bullshit reasons and it was all back on Holding. These stats are very selective. If Holding had been in the reverse fixtures the twitter crowd would be saying we had better xg for and against in the Leeds game and thats because Holdings the problem.

goon

All I see there is that you pre-emptively decided that none of it was going to be Holding's fault and then blame the fake news media when the cracks show themselves.

Honestly forget the stats and use logic if you like. The difference between Holding and Saliba isn't just that the latter doesn't make 'massive mistakes', the difference is one is a much better defender. When you take out guys like Jesus or Saliba for extended periods and replace them with players who are much worse, you'll get adverse effects.

Sicario2 - Tier 1

If Kiowir was in the team v West Ham/Southampton I promise you we wouldn’t have just two points from those games

Don Pacifico

Sicario2 - Tier 1 given the way he played against Sporting and Liverpool, I don't think there is any certainty to that suggestion.

Sicario2 - Tier 1

Don Pacifico

Why not look at his performances v Chelsea and Newcastle instead?

Mirth

Bit harsh to include Liverpool, he was thrown to the lions

Sicario2 - Tier 1

Mirth

THIS

Nelson looked shit against Sporting. Basically no one came out of Sporting with their heads held high.

Don Pacifico

Sicario2 - Tier 1 Liverpool we can potentially ignore but I think there was unanimous disappointment in his performance versus Sporting. Whilst that didn't need to be a permanent blot on his copybook it also didn't inspire confidence for him to come into the side (in an unfamiliar position) in some crunch matches for us.

Great that it's worked out for him when he did come into the side but I can't help but feel it's a bit lazy to suggest having Kiwior in the side would have meant we won those matches as there isn't enough evidence to prove that.

QuincyAbeyie

Sicario2 - Tier 1 are you asking why he only included the performances that had actually happened and not the ones that would go on to happen afterwards?

Clrnc

Don Pacifico The argument wasn't that. He was obviously rusty.

The argument was why did we not blood him earlier? He was on the bench with 0 minutes for a good 1-2 months when he could have came on for half an hour when we won games already, started at home in easier matches etc.

banduan

am I the only one who thinks Rambo didn't actually pass the ball straight to the Soton player?

banduan

Burnwinter

Clrnc The argument wasn't that. He was obviously rusty.

Maybe, but we weren't saying he was obviously just rusty until he'd actually put in a decent performance. For all we knew he was just young, green and not adapted to the league.

Absolutely true we should've had a clearer answer to that question sooner, though. The more I think about it, the more I tend to conclude that Arteta gets both the credit for the great achievements of this team this season, and the criticism for these little failures in the margins of his approach as well.

Don Pacifico

Clrnc yeah, I don't disagree that we should have integrated him more but I don't think that's specifically what Sicario was asserting...?

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