Wishlist 2022/2023: Page 75 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Wishlist 2022/2023

Meatwad

lorddulaarsenal
Doue seems more like an 8.

lorddulaarsenal

————————Raya
White—-Saliba——Gabriel—-Timber
————-———-Rice
————Odegaard——Eze
Saka———-Havertz———Williams

We like?

Qwiss

No. Midfield isn't passy enough.

flobaba

Yeah we need someone with a bit more metronomic passing ability sitting at the base of that midfield than Rice.

TambourineMan

We need a Vitinha type in midfield.

samthegooner

Personally I think Rice can be that metronomic passer in the base of midfield and I believe his best role will always be the 6. I’d rather have a more attacking player at the 8. Eze is the closest thing to Musiala out there to me and would help us unlock the stingiest of low blocks and mid blocks that gave us trouble last year. I also think he would give us another top individual talent to win later stages of the Champs League. Would’ve loved to have him against Bayern last year. I love that we can nitpick huge potential signings these days instead of begging for scraps. These debates truly prove that we are back in the elites.

Bernard Woolley

samthegooner I don't think Eze cuts it for me. I think we need a more two-way player with a balanced focus on attack and defence in that position, else it hamstrings Odegaard, who is our best player and deserves as much freedom as possible to drift between the lines, both horizontally and vertically. We need a #8 who adapts to that rather than another free spirit. I'm personally ambivalent to whether Rice plays at #6 or #8 (marginal preference for him at #8 where his ball-carrying is better utilized) as long as we get a complementary piece at the other position who can beat the press and pass through the lines, but that person shouldn't be taking up Odegaard's space and needs to be a more hybrid / moderately conservative CM. If we sign Eze, it has to be to replace Martinelli and I'd think that's a waste of 60M.

RowJimmy

I think the season made clear that Rice is best when paired with a DLP, allowing him to get forward without the ball and join in the press. This is the Partey/Jorginho role and in the long term it is IMO our most important need. (Much more than a CF for example.) It's also the rarest of beasts and we may need to be planning 2 years ahead on a recruit. But we need to budget in a way that doesn't mean we end up with a left 8/10 who we need much less and not the DLP we need.

Qwiss

RowJimmy I think the season made clear that Rice is best when paired with a DLP

IF people had watched his last season at WHU they'd have already known that. He was pretty mediocre at the start of that season until Moyes dropped Soucek back to help him out with the build up, then he played like a beast for the rest of the season. Just think back to him stealing the ball from Partey to break our hearts. Thats where he should be, not sitting back trying to do tactical things and make line breaking passes, thats not him. He's top notch at what he does, we don't need to make him something else.

Clrnc

Rice as a 6 makes us very predictable and hard to build up play. I think we already know how limited his passing is at West Ham. It wasn't something unexpected.

Unless we can find an 8 that can open up defences, we definitely need a DLP

Burnwinter

Rice has just spent six months adapting well to the 8. He's become more alert to opportunities and developed a knack for the odd disguised or ad hoc creative pass, and he's upped his end product. I think he is already as good as Xhaka's best up there.

Rice brings us balance in the advanced role because even though he isn't an elite creator or striker, he's superb off the ball—vital to our game and always lacking when the likes of Vieira and Trossard step in—and he has the engine to rove back for full matches to support a more cultured passer. You'd need a left-sided Øde-clone to suit us much better, in which case, yes.

On the other hand, if we snap up a prime age, motivated and durable deep-lying playmaker who can handle a few defensive responsibilities, we wouldn't just have someone there with a higher ceiling on his passing than Rice. It would give us an additional boost by liberating Ødegaard from two-way duties.

JazzG

We played with Rice as a 6 for most of last season and he was absolutely fine. He isn't Thomas Partey with the ball but his passing is good enough. People compare him to Rodri or Kroos but fail to mention those two usually play with defensive players.

The main difference is for Arsenal he looks up and sees options everywhere, for England the shape and system is non existent.

RowJimmy

JazzG
Rodri is absolutely City's most defensive and deepest positioned MF.
Kroos indeed plays on with a holder behind him, usually one of the two French kids. He's the left side of a diamond - positionally more similar to Rice as an 8 than Rice as a 6. With Valverde on the right side he doesn't have to run so much.

Mirth

JazzG We played with Rice as a 6 for most of last season and he was absolutely fine.

he wasn't bad per say but our best form was definitely when he was partnered with Jorginho

RowJimmy

To be a bit more specific about what I think the season demonstrated -
In the first half of the season (when we were good, not great) we played Jesus or Nketiah at CF, Havertz at left-sided AM, and Rice as a single pivot. In the second half of the season we brought in Jorginho or Partey, dropped Jesus/Nketiah, and moved Havertz and Rice up the field. In principle the earlier personnel is more attacking. But the actual result was that Odegaard had to drop deeper. The second half of the season we pressed better, we transitioned the ball forward more quickly, and we had our lock-picker in his best space.

I'm not opposed to a left-sided attacker if it's a transformative player, or a punt on a kid. R or S in Burnwinter's terms.

Burnwinter

RowJimmy I'm not opposed to a left-sided attacker if it's a transformative player, or a punt on a kid. R or S in Burnwinter's terms.

Whoever we look for in that position should either force Martinelli out of the first XI, or be an unreal talent headed for world class status. It's a hard ask. Fall short and there's no change to the status quo.

Even though our midfield targets are extremely elusive and expensive, it'll be slightly easier to shift the dial in that part of the pitch.

JazzG

RowJimmy Rodri is absolutely City's most defensive and deepest positioned MF.

I don't think he is, he's played a lot of games with a CB (Stones) or in a double pivot with Kovacic. Then factor in he plays with four CBs behind him as well. He has a system around him that lets him get forward.

Clrnc

Mirth Yep. We struggled many times to create enough openings in the first half with him as a 6 and relied plenty of set pieces.

JazzG

Mirth I agree which is why imo we need someone like FDJ to partner him in midfield. Someone who can carry the ball forward but also when Rice moves forward he could always drop back.

samthegooner

The piece that everyone is conveniently leaving out with Rice as the 6 is that Havertz was playing as the 8 then and that clearly did not work. It was also when Odegaard was playing higher up and not helping to dictate the buildup. If you add in a player like Eze/Simons who can progress the ball through the dribble much better than Kai could, I believe Rice would be exactly what we need in the 6. Rice at the 6 with Odegaard dropping deeper and then a more attacking option at the 8 is really something I want to see - whether that’s Eze/Simons or ESR.

RowJimmy

samthegooner
to repeat myself:

In the first half of the season (when we were good, not great) we played Jesus or Nketiah at CF, Havertz at left-sided AM, and Rice as a single pivot. In the second half of the season we brought in Jorginho or Partey, dropped Jesus/Nketiah, and moved Havertz and Rice up the field. In principle the earlier personnel is more attacking. But the actual result was that Odegaard had to drop deeper. The second half of the season we pressed better, we transitioned the ball forward more quickly, and we had our lock-picker in his best space.

Mirth

Seconded - Odegaard was definitely dropping deeper in the first half of the season when Rice was at the base of midfield.

Coombs

Gotta give up on categorizing these positions as 6 or 8. The numbers don't really mean anything anymore. Rice is a defensive, athletic, pressing monster and that's how he's best deployed. To play him with a metronomic passer like Jorginho doesn't change that.

In fact, what I want is an elite passer who can also burst beyond when needed while Rice covers him. Jorginho did that once last season and managed a cutback assist. More of that, please.

Formations are for when we're off the ball. Shape is a defensive concept. Positions are relative when you're on the ball and attacking, so it's more about attributes and personality. Rice is a runner and carrier, we need a younger, fitter, disciplined, always-available passing midfielder to complement him and give Arteta maximum selection flexibility.

Of course, there are other ways to do it. We could just triple down on hard running athletic monsters and get an elite forward to turn all those broken game-states into goals.

samthegooner

I wouldn’t mind an amazing passer there either but who would fit the bill that’s also potentially available this summer? If you’re looking for a Vitinho type then we could go big for Joao Neves. If we are looking more for a Jorginho regen then we could go for the other Neves, Ruben. Who are others of the same ilk? Kimmich? Wharton? It just doesn’t feel like we are being linked with these types right now but I also feel like Arteta/Edu are keeping things close to the vest.

« Previous Page Next Page »