Pepe to the bench?: Page 5 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Pepe to the bench?

Doc

guys been trash for most of his time here

jones

goon wrote:
I was carrying the baton for Pepe last year but whatever his treatment, he's not worth the heartache. There are fundamental flaws in his game, namely his touch, technical consistency and balance etc, that mean he's never really going to excel at a top club.

He should be kept more involved and should be used to give the likes of Saka and ESR a rest more frequently and generally played when he's in a patch of good form, but that's about as far as I'd go.

Pepe's first year at Lille looked the same, inconsistent touch, balance blabla. Then he exploded in his second season and tore the league apart by himself.

What do you guys think Saka would look like if he got benched after two weeks every single time regardless of how he plays? You would make absolutely horrendous coaches

Also when did you carry the baton for Pepe? 😆

goon

I've always been an advocate, I was as critical as anyone when Willian took his spot. I also advocated him playing ahead of Saka on the back end of last season.

Ligue 1 is different though, and so are Lille and the space he gets there. I'm not saying he couldn't do better under a different manager and more game time, of course he could, but you're still going to hit a ceiling.

That's not really a criticism of him either, there's very few wingers of his type who can excel in the sort of environment top teams face. It's why I'm never taken in by the likes of Zaha or ASM.

jones

Agree with most of what you're saying there (can't recall you being vocal about your support though), but talent wise he's more Hazard than Zaha. He barely got playing time last season, looked on the brink of being sold and still scored 16, ASM or any other average PL winger rarely get close to those figures even in a full season.

KingslandBarge

you're in full recruitment drive for your Pépé agenda mate 😆 Every so often calling for Smith-Rowe and Saka to be benched is amusing too. 101 of dribbling is not to leave the ball behind when you run. Don't need match time to shore that up.

Anyway we have 3 games in 8 days starting tonight; 4 in like 12 days. Anything south of 45 minutes from him during that run is going to be very disappointing, further indicating personal issues between the two rather than fair shake.

Sicario

goon wrote:
I was carrying the baton for Pepe last year but whatever his treatment, he's not worth the heartache. There are fundamental flaws in his game, namely his touch, technical consistency and balance etc, that mean he's never really going to excel at a top club.

He should be kept more involved and should be used to give the likes of Saka and ESR a rest more frequently and generally played when he's in a patch of good form, but that's about as far as I'd go.

100 percent agree with this.

Pepe has had multiple opportunities to make that spot his own but for one reason or the other it just never materialised. Got talent but decision making is questionable. I’ve seen him live on dozen of occasions and overall he is more frustrating than good.

Use him until the end of the season as a squad player and sell immediately in the summer.

jones

KingslandBarge wrote:
you're in full recruitment drive for your Pépé agenda mate 😆 Every so often calling for Smith-Rowe and Saka to be benched is amusing too. 101 of dribbling is not to leave the ball behind when you run. Don't need match time to shore that up.

I just watch football outside of Arsenal too. Having seen what players can do in other environments often gives you an indication what they can do for you even if they don't show it immediately. Of course you need match time and confidence to shore literally everything in your game up, regardless what position you play or your age. Not sure what you've been thinking writing that out but it's not a very smart statement.

Anyway we have 3 games in 8 days starting tonight; 4 in like 12 days. Anything south of 45 minutes from him during that run is going to be very disappointing, further indicating personal issues between the two rather than fair shake.

He got five minutes twice in the last two months, during a time period where we lost half the matches we played. If you're still waiting to be disappointed you either haven't been paying attention or have the patience of an angel.

Ricky1985

I would guess it's possible that Pépé might be getting minutes now to increase the likelihood of someone offering decent money for him in January. Perhaps a club in the north east that are a flush with cash and in a desperate situation?

I watched Pépé at Lille too, and I loved him. But I will admit I was wrong. He played on the break and he was devastating, but I view the Ligue 1 and the Bundesliga in a similar way in terms of the higher lines that teams on average tend to play verus the Premier League - where, in my opinion, the overall quality is also higher.

My general view has changed a little in the last two years as well. I think the elite attackers are the ones that can play and impact games when space is at absolute premium. This seems like an obvious statement, but I think it is very easy to get carried away by players that thrive and look elite, perhaps even produce elite numbers, in counter-attacking teams. I keep this firmly in mind now when I try and work out how good a player is exactly and whether they could reproduce that same level in a different tactical system and when afforded less time and space.

I'm with Goon: Pépé is, in my opinion, an example of someone that can not reproduce that Lille level of impact at a club that most weeks is facing teams that don't allow that space.

I look at the reliability of Saka's touch, the close control he has when dribbling, the awareness he has before he gets the ball which makes all the difference when someone is immediately on you, the quick and correct decision making, and it's all levels and levels up from Pépé. That's what an elite attacker looks like, even if he still has development to do before he actually gets there.

Could he have been used better in his time here? Is he better than we've seen from him in recent times? Absolutely. But I also think there is a similar issue between Arteta and Pépé to the problems that are around Aubameyang in terms of application and professionalism in both training and matches. And on that I side with Arteta 100%. As far as I see it, either get serious or get on the bench.

Qwiss

I don't even really blame Arteta for the shit job he's done with Pepe. He should never have been allowed by those above him to make such a bollox of a player we spent £72m on. That they allow such a poor coach operate with little to no oversight is insane, especially compared to how they gave none of that to Emery who was superior in basically every aspect of management aside from press conferences in English.

Klaus

I think the "could he have been better used" part is the only thing that is relevant to this discussion right now. People talk about Pepé having a built-in limit that will prevent him from being among the very best, which might or might not be true. But Arsenal aren't among the very best at the moment. We're not even an Europa League team anymore!

If the focus is on getting back to some kind of decent standard then I think you have to find a use for your best players, warts and all. You can't drop 150 million worth of attacking talent in the stands while we average a goal per game! We can't kick the ball five yards in the attacking half of the pitch currently, and people are running around making purist arguments about how Pepé's touch prevents him from being Ronaldinho. The issue isn't his touch, it's our football.

Mirth

Spot on, we're wasting time talking about individuals - particularly ones that are frozen out of the team when the problem so clearly the system itself:

And we're not exactly that much better at defending either despite some moments of promise:

Ricky1985

Klaus wrote:
I think the "could he have been better used" part is the only thing that is relevant to this discussion right now. People talk about Pepé having a built-in limit that will prevent him from being among the very best, which might or might not be true. But Arsenal aren't among the very best at the moment. We're not even an Europa League team anymore!

If the focus is on getting back to some kind of decent standard then I think you have to find a use for your best players, warts and all. You can't drop 150 million worth of attacking talent in the stands while we average a goal per game! We can't kick the ball five yards in the attacking half of the pitch currently, and people are running around making purist arguments about how Pepé's touch prevents him from being Ronaldinho. The issue isn't his touch, it's our football.

Lots of teams we face still sit back against us because they know it's the best way to get a positive result against us. It's nkt often we get a Southampton coming and pressing high like that - and we tend to take teams like that apart. An on-form Pépé would have had a field day agains them.

And you say about £150m worth of players on the bench, but that's not true - it's always been one of Lacazette or Aubameyang and, for a while now, Pépé. And for Arteta's first season at the club, when he tried to play more on the counter, the starting front three was Aubameyang wide left, Pépé in the right, and Lacazette through the middle.

On top of that, you say we can't pass a ball 5 yards, and I understand that, but the attack is made up of Smith Rowe, Martinelli, Saka, Ødegaard, with Lacazette or Aubameyang thrown in as the one senior guy. It's not like Arteta is playing a load of cloggers - they're just young and finding their way at the top level, in a young team that is also trying to find itself.

If Arteta was playing the older players and the results were anything but stellar, you can absolutely guarantee we would be hearing the calls to "play the young guys, even if the results suffer" because at least it would be exciting and a positve for the future. Just as was said before when Pépé was crap or Willian, or Aubameyang and Lacazette were stinking it up.

Qwiss

Klaus wrote:
I think the "could he have been better used" part is the only thing that is relevant to this discussion right now. People talk about Pepé having a built-in limit that will prevent him from being among the very best, which might or might not be true. But Arsenal aren't among the very best at the moment. We're not even an Europa League team anymore!

If the focus is on getting back to some kind of decent standard then I think you have to find a use for your best players, warts and all. You can't drop 150 million worth of attacking talent in the stands while we average a goal per game! We can't kick the ball five yards in the attacking half of the pitch currently, and people are running around making purist arguments about how Pepé's touch prevents him from being Ronaldinho. The issue isn't his touch, it's our football.

100% agree. People were actually calling for us to sign another winger in the summer because of the flaws ESR, Pepe, Martinelli, etc had. Who do they think we are going to get? I've a funny feeling we're about to have the same issue at CF.

Qwiss

Ricky1985 wrote:
If Arteta was playing the older players and the results were anything but stellar, you can absolutely guarantee we would be hearing the calls to "play the young guys, even if the results suffer" because at least it would be exciting and a positve for the future. Just as was said before when Pépé was crap or Willian, or Aubameyang and Lacazette were stinking it up.

It doesn't matter if he plays older or younger players, results suffer anyway when Arteta is in charge.

jones

It's difficult to ascertain beforehand, especially for Arsenal fans when most of us have only seen Wenger in charge, at least as adults, followed by Emery who came with his own difficulties. But everyone has seen our rivals and how their fortunes have changed once they ditched poor managers and replaced them with good ones.

I just did a quick check and out of 32 players who were at Arsenal when Arteta took over there are five who are still in his plans. 17 who aren't here any more and ten more who might as well be gone and won't play many more significant minutes. Not even counting guys like Willian or Runnarson who came in and left immediately.

That's an outrageous return for a squad that got 70 points weeks before. Of course you can upgrade on every single player anywhere but it doesn't mean you have to when you're not getting nearly the best out of the squad you have. This guy just isn't good enough, that guy's a bad influence and after 80%+ of the squad has been ditched some still won't realise the problem might lie elsewhere. Insane

goon

Which of those who have left or not getting mins would you want to see more of, which of them were performing at a high level?

For all the criticism you could point towards Arteta, I find this one really odd. I can't imagine there were many people here thinking this squad didn't need an overhaul. In fact, what I find more worthy of criticism is that we haven't shifted more. How many of the players Klopp inherited at Liverpool were playing a major role 24 months later?

QuincyAbeyie

Klaus wrote:
I think the "could he have been better used" part is the only thing that is relevant to this discussion right now.

Pretty much this. The "he should've played more, but if he did he would've probably shown that he shouldn't be more than a backup player" angle is quite odd. As long as we agree that he should've played more than he has, that time he should've played but has been left on the bench is time we should've been able to judge him on.

jones

goon wrote:
Which of those who have left or not getting mins would you want to see more of, which of them were performing at a high level?

For all the criticism you could point towards Arteta, I find this one really odd. I can't imagine there were many people here thinking this squad didn't need an overhaul. In fact, what I find more worthy of criticism is that we haven't shifted more. How many of the players Klopp inherited at Liverpool were there are playing a major role 24 months later?

A lot more than Arteta has shifted out only for us to be treading water. Not going to check the squad list for you but off the top of my head shitsters like Lovren Moreno Mignolet Clyne Karius Lallana reached the CL final under him. Jokers like Ox Milner Henderson Firmino Origi etc won the fucking thing and Liverpool's first league title in forever.

This isn't FIFA or Football Manager, you can't just buy all the players you want, especially you who keeps harping about not wanting to become a oligarch's plaything should know that there's no way to improve as a club if the head coach doesn't know how to improve his players.

flobaba

Also concerning is how there’s been a regression in Pepe’s overall game this season.

In fact very few of the players have shown marked, or consistent improvement in their skill sets since Arteta took over. There are mitigating circumstances of course, but bar say Gabriel, player development hasn’t been great if we are being honest, and this is supposedly one of Arteta’s key strengths.

goon

jones wrote:
goon wrote:
Which of those who have left or not getting mins would you want to see more of, which of them were performing at a high level?

For all the criticism you could point towards Arteta, I find this one really odd. I can't imagine there were many people here thinking this squad didn't need an overhaul. In fact, what I find more worthy of criticism is that we haven't shifted more. How many of the players Klopp inherited at Liverpool were there are playing a major role 24 months later?

A lot more than Arteta has shifted out only for us to be treading water. Not going to check the squad list for you but off the top of my head shitsters like Lovren Moreno Mignolet Clyne Karius Lallana reached the CL final under him. Jokers like Ox Milner Henderson Firmino Origi etc won the fucking thing and Liverpool's first league title in forever.

This isn't FIFA or Football Manager, you can't just buy all the players you want, especially you who keeps harping about not wanting to become a oligarch's plaything should know that there's no way to improve as a club if the head coach doesn't know how to improve his players.

I'm not talking about performance though, if you're saying he should have done better with those players in the interim, that's fine - I'm sure Arteta himself would accept he should have done much better than 8th - but it was still a necessary job to overhaul the squad, and it was necessary to do it quickly.

Klopp signed Ox btw, this is the second time you've repressed that little fact, and those shitsters you mention were gone not long after one of them cost him in that very same CL final.

And your numbers don't really accurately reflect what's happening, from our last game against Southampton, 45% of the starting lineup were here, 50% of those who played some part were here as were 55% of the match day squad.

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