Striker watch - 2022 Edition: Page 19 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Striker watch - 2022 Edition

Klaus

Either way this is all very theoretical when Auba looks to be out in the cold, because it leaves us with a fairly useless Lacazette as our only striking option. If Vlahovic is on the market for a reasonable fee I think we have to get involved. I just don't think people should expect an Mbappe talent.

Ricky1985

Klaus wrote:
Ricky1985 wrote:
I'd put it like this: someone needs to get hold of Isaak and teach him what he needs to learn in order to become an elite striker, whereas with Vlahovic, it looks to me like nothing and no one will prevent that from happening.

We'll just have to disagree Ricky.

I'd put it like this: Isak is going to be a top class footballer by the time he's 24 and it's mostly a matter of letting him play and develop until then. With Vlahovic I think the future is less certain. He could turn out the new van Nistelrooy and looks to be on the path, but I also think there's a chance that he'd come, have a stormer of a 6 months or so, and then he'd fade just like Piatek did at Milan because opponents will adjust and he'll have to drop deeper to find space where he's not very effective, and we'll end up loaning him out to Bundesliga where there's less pressure on the striker.

It's very hard to predict what will happen with him and I think people get ahead of themselves because they've seen him on Youtube. I don't watch most Fiorentina games either obviously, but I do know that his strengths are as a box player, which (I think) is the kind of type you don't seem to really want at Arsenal. A fair chunk of his goals are penalties too; about a third of them, both this season and across the last year.

His main insurance is his size I reckon, you'd expect him to be able to hold up the ball even if everything else fails; but as we know from years of Giroud that doesn't give you a top class player in itself.

You think by 24, Isaak will be banging 30 goals a season in like Vlahovic is doing right now and all top strikers must do? At whichever club he's at or league he finds himself in?

I'm not sure I see that for him, but I'm intrigued to know what you, with your greater knowledge of him, see in his game to give you the confidence you have that he's nailed on for the very top?

Klaus

First off Vlahovic has scored 16 goals this season, which is half of 30.

With Isak it's just the happy accident between various attributes. Normal players, even great ones, have maybe one or two outstanding abilities in their toolbox. He has four or five. Bloke's a 6'4 striker with the technique and pace of a 5'7 midfielder. Everyone who saw him bang them in at 16 knew that he was not just ahead of the curve in his age group; he was doing it because his football was better than all the grown-up players. If he hadn't been tricked into signing for Dortmund he'd be scoring 30+ regularly right now. There are another few levels to unlock in him, and it'll probably happen when he grows a bit physically.

QuincyAbeyie

To be fair Ricky was just going by what he's scored so far and not assume that he'd score 0 goals the rest of the season.

Pepe LeFrits

Bit of a stretch to assume he'll keep banging them in at his current rate all season long though. Last season his strike rate wasn't that much better than Isak's so I don't think it's all that cut and dried between them. He's been red hot for half a season. I'd a bit wary of strikers hitting hot streaks in Serie A, but if we get him for 45 mill it'd be hard to argue it's not worth doing

Klaus

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
To be fair Ricky was just going by what he's scored so far and not assume that he'd score 0 goals the rest of the season.

Conversely, if goals across a season were calculated from doubling the amount of goals you've scored during the first half of the season, Vlahovic would have scored 6 goals last season, not 21.

Obviously I don't think he'll score 0 goals for the rest of the season either, but saying he's already a 30 goal a season striker is literally counting twice as many goals as he has scored so far. That doesn't strike me as correct. It was a fairly simple point I thought, but it wasn't that important anyway.

Ricky1985

Klaus wrote:
First off Vlahovic has scored 16 goals this season, which is half of 30.

With Isak it's just the happy accident between various attributes. Normal players, even great ones, have maybe one or two outstanding abilities in their toolbox. He has four or five. Bloke's a 6'4 striker with the technique and pace of a 5'7 midfielder. Everyone who saw him bang them in at 16 knew that he was not just ahead of the curve in his age group; he was doing it because his football was better than all the grown-up players. If he hadn't been tricked into signing for Dortmund he'd be scoring 30+ regularly right now. There are another few levels to unlock in him, and it'll probably happen when he grows a bit physically.

I agree with the points you make about his outstanding attributes, but I just can't get past the feeling that he lacks a nose for goal, that instinct that gets you 15 goals a season guaranteed. Vlahovic has it, you can see it a mile off. Our greatest ever player, who I mentioned earlier, probably had to develop the ability for that later, but he was so outrageously and incredibly skilled in every aspect that it almost didn't matter. I can definitely see a resemblance in Isaak's skills, but at a much lower level across the board - but Henry was obviously a generational striker, so the comparison is harsh.

I'm just not sure I see the variety in his finishiing to say that he's nailed on for 30 goals a season, every season. He needs a left foot, he needs to imppove with his head, he needs to make better runs and be more of constant threat in the penalty box in order to score that number of goals - that's a lot to develop.

goon

Klaus wrote:
Ricky1985 wrote:
I'd put it like this: someone needs to get hold of Isaak and teach him what he needs to learn in order to become an elite striker, whereas with Vlahovic, it looks to me like nothing and no one will prevent that from happening.

We'll just have to disagree Ricky.

I'd put it like this: Isak is going to be a top class footballer by the time he's 24 and it's mostly a matter of letting him play and develop until then. With Vlahovic I think the future is less certain. He could turn out the new van Nistelrooy and looks to be on the path, but I also think there's a chance that he'd come, have a stormer of a 6 months or so, and then he'd fade just like Piatek did at Milan because opponents will adjust and he'll have to drop deeper to find space where he's not very effective, and we'll end up loaning him out to Bundesliga where there's less pressure on the striker.

I completely agree there's an element of risk that they'll both flop there just because of how demanding the position is. I take a very different view as to which one is more likely to succeed though. Vlahovic's strengths are a little more bread and butter, he's an excellent finisher, he's strong (and will get stronger), doesn't mind battling centre backs, is no slouch and is pretty strong technically. He's basically you're standard stereotypical centre forward. Isak has more to his game on the other hand, skill, dribbling ability etc. but these are things that are not easy to show off as a centre forward. I also think how successful he will be depends heavily on if he can develop more power and burst and I don't think that's always a safe assumption. I also think a proven ability to score goals is nothing to turn your nose up at,

I don't watch most Fiorentina games either obviously, but I do know that his strengths are as a box player, which (I think) is the kind of type you don't seem to really want at Arsenal. A fair chunk of his goals are penalties too; about a third of them, both this season and across the last year.

Admittedly it's mostly touch comps but he doesn't look like purely a box player to me, seems comfortable enough dropping deep. Either way he definitely has the tools to be a hold up player.

Ricky1985

Pepe LeFrits wrote:
Bit of a stretch to assume he'll keep banging them in at his current rate all season long though. Last season his strike rate wasn't that much better than Isak's so I don't think it's all that cut and dried between them. He's been red hot for half a season. I'd a bit wary of strikers hitting hot streaks in Serie A, but if we get him for 45 mill it'd be hard to argue it's not worth doing

He's been red hot for 12 months. He equalled C.Ronaldo's calendar year goal record for Serie A, with 33 goals in 2021. In a Fiorentina team that finished 13th and currently sits in mid-table. He has 16 goals in 19 games this season, 18 in 21 if you include the Coppa Italia.

At what point do we stop calling it red hot form and acknowledge that he's just very, very good?

And, contrary to the point I made about Isaak in the last post, you can absolutely see why he has scored so many goals and will likely continue scoring. His left foot is a lethal weapon, he scores with head, he makes all the right runs, he knocks defenders around, and he scores all kinds of goals. It's be a pretty safe bet to back him to get 12 more goals this season, or close to it, if he stayed on at Fiorentina.

goon

Pepe LeFrits wrote:
Bit of a stretch to assume he'll keep banging them in at his current rate all season long though. Last season his strike rate wasn't that much better than Isak's so I don't think it's all that cut and dried between them. He's been red hot for half a season. I'd a bit wary of strikers hitting hot streaks in Serie A, but if we get him for 45 mill it'd be hard to argue it's not worth doing

He's been red hot for the whole of 2021 to be fair. I had the same thoughts in the summer but he's kept it going.

QuincyAbeyie

Klaus wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
To be fair Ricky was just going by what he's scored so far and not assume that he'd score 0 goals the rest of the season.

Conversely, if goals across a season were calculated from doubling the amount of goals you've scored during the first half of the season, Vlahovic would have scored 6 goals last season, not 21.

Obviously I don't think he'll score 0 goals for the rest of the season either, but saying he's already a 30 goal a season striker is literally counting twice as many goals as he has scored so far. That doesn't strike me as correct. It was a fairly simple point I thought, but it wasn't that important anyway.

It was a simple point, but I pointed out since you specifically said that he's scored 16 not 30.

Rohit

I do think from the little I have seen that Isak may have the higher ceiling of the two. However, Vlahovic excites me. He will have a great career where ever he ends up, at 21 he gives the feeling that he was born to score goals and not many young strikers make you feel that. Also, in terms of a combinations, any 3 of the 4 out of Saka, Marinelli, ESR and Odegaard will work brilliantly with him. For me it will just be about how much he fancies the physical battle here week in week out.

Sicario

I really hope we do get him now. Will be disappointed if we don’t after all this hype.

Klaus

Ricky1985 wrote:
I'm just not sure I see the variety in his finishiing to say that he's nailed on for 30 goals a season, every season. He needs a left foot, he needs to imppove with his head, he needs to make better runs and be more of constant threat in the penalty box in order to score that number of goals - that's a lot to develop.

Vlahovic basically uses his right foot for support and nothing else. I think he has scored one goal out of his last 32 with it. That's another weakness that I reckon defenders and goalkeepers will clue up on eventually; even when they force him onto his weak foot he chooses the left to finish with from a non-angle.

I'm just going to stop before it sounds like I'm tearing into him, because that was not my intention at all here. I've already said I think we should go for it if there's an opportunity because the potential upside is too big not to. I just fundamentally disagree over which kind of player he is and the level he currently holds. There's a little more power to him but the breakthrough otherwise feels very similar to Piatek's a few years ago. As always it's an opinion and nothing more, so don't take me too seriously if you feel like I'm spoiling the party. Fully open to the idea that I've misjudged him slightly.

Big Willie

Clrnc wrote:
Been awhile since I saw you so excited about an Arsenal signing Ricks. The last time was probably Pepe?

All signs point to us signing him. When's the last time we got a top young striker?

Wasn't it White?

Big Willie

I'll be honest, whilst I reckon Vlah could do a good job for us, I don't see an elite player in him. His touch looks nothing like van persie who had one of the best close control during his time in the PL.

Feels a very Giroudesque signing I have to say. Don't forget when we signed Giroud he was dominating the scoring charts in France as well leading his team to the title (or was it the cup?).

He seems a decent player but through albeit limited viewing, aside from his strength in holding up the play and what seems to be a good finish, I don't think his all round game is anywhere near as good as people think.

lorddulaarsenal

Klaus I hear what you’re saying about opponents sussing out Vlahovic’s game, but a large part of his strength is being alive to things in the box. He has that natural desire to get on the end of things. With the type of service he’ll get here I’m not sure opponents will be able to do an awful lot about it.

goon

Big Willie wrote:
I'll be honest, whilst I reckon Vlah could do a good job for us, I don't see an elite player in him. His touch looks nothing like van persie who had one of the best close control during his time in the PL.

Feels a very Giroudesque signing I have to say. Don't forget when we signed Giroud he was dominating the scoring charts in France as well leading his team to the title (or was it the cup?).

He seems a decent player but through albeit limited viewing, aside from his strength in holding up the play and what seems to be a good finish, I don't think his all round game is anywhere near as good as people think.

His touch is nowhere near RvP level but that's a odd stick to beat him with, why even make the comparison?

If you wanted to use someone as a cautionary tale Lacazette would be a better example than Giroud, but Vlahovic's finishing looks several levels better than either.

We can talk about strikers like peak van Persie, Mbappe or Benzema but unless you can show me where we find one of those what he doesn't have is a bit of a moot point.

Gunner89

There's Haaland & Mbappe and then the rest when it comes to young attacking talent.

From the rest, who are in the younger bracket 20-25 these I would consider-

Schick
Jonathan David
Amine Gouiri
Alexander Isak
Dusan Vlahovic
Victor Osimhen
Lautaro

We need to identify which one of these would explode and have that impact Suarez did.

Doc

Isak is the one that excites the most, but would be a risk. Issue is that there is such a lack of fwd talent at the moment that it may just get harder and harder to find something in the next couple of years so may need to move quick, then it is more about who is gettable in the next 6 months as we may not have a recognised striker then.

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